Speaking of sleep. Archer could be a real "sleeper" this year if he has a breakout year. Could be the biggest draft bargain ever.
Dri 2.0
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I don't know how people can really be upset with Archer and his rookie season to start ANOTHER thread. What did players #98 and later do that was so much better. In fact Martavis Bryant might have had the best offensive year for guys drafted after Archer and we got him to. If he doesn't improve and doesn't dress this year then yeah cut him but I am giving the kid the benefit of the doubt that his first year will be a year to grow from.
Archer wasn't the pick that many wanted at that spot. They perceive him to be a luxury pick at a point in the draft where more pressing needs could have been filled. In reality, it's a valid point. And to be honest, most of those who are upset about the Archer pick have also been upset about the Landry Jones pick the year before.
With that said, he's here so I hope he is able to progress and do something with his 4 - 6 touches a game. He will never be an every down back. More than likely he'll never be an every down WR. I think the best that he could ever be is an Eric Metcalf type of player. I'd be extremely happy if he ever reaches that level in the Black and Gold.
I'd be pleased if he ripped off two big gains a game in the return game that gave us a short field and did not fumble. Or two be gains from scrimmage that got us down the field per game with out fumbling or taking a loss. I thought he was just two small when drafted but since we have him I hope he is a success.
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I'd be happy if he could take over all the return duties... That's not much to ask from a third round pick.
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Idioteque
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Exactly; it's irrelevant. He was a 3rd-round pick we drafted in the 3rd round.
Arguing about the merits of a guy mid-3rd as opposed to early or late 3rd is silly. Anyone who tells you a pick sucked or was great because he went 10-15 spots too early/late is just babbling. Guess what? We don't get to choose which slot we draft from. And we didn't pick 10-15 picks earlier.
It's Timmons, dude. Sad and silly as that is, he's pretty clearly referring to your stance on Timmons. You're far from the first. A lot of these guys literally form their e-opinions of you based on whether you think Lawrence Timmons is kinda bad, OK, kinda good, or really good. He sticks in lots of craws around here.
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Idioteque
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No, it's more likely the OC overruled Tomlin, forced the braintrust to draft Archer as the lone voice in the room, then refused to work him into the offense in any capacity. Or maybe Tomlin hates Archer so much HE kept him on the sidelines. And after being overruled by Haley at the draft, too.
Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but in Haley's history, he has had one (1) Archer-like guy - McCluster - whom he worked into the offense. And McCluster wasn't even productive in it. Hard for me to believe that everything in this reply happened.
You forgot Rainey. Sorry, I misread, you did say one Archer-like guy ... whom he worked into the offense. There was also LaRod Stephens-Howling ... before he got hurt anyway.
Did I miss anyone? Because as far as I can remember, Rainey, Archer and Stephens-Howling are the only backs of that size that have been brought in during the "Tombert" era. All were brought in after Haley's arrival. Perhaps it's just a coincidence.
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Idioteque
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Rainey was worked into the offense? 2.5 touches/game, hot damn, what a workhorse.
As I said, I agree with you. Haley clearly overruled Tomlin and MADE the team draft Archer - then he oddly chose to never play him. It all adds up.
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Stefan Logan was a "running back" as well. He was here in 2009. 5'-7" and 177 LBS.
David Gilreath, WR, was in camp in 2011. He was 5'-9" and 170 LBS.
We also tried WR Marquis Maze as a camp body returner in 2012. He was 5'-8" and 185 LBS.
Kashief Moore was on the practice squad in 2012. 5'-9" and 180 LBS.
This organization (might be a Colbert thing) has never been adverse to bringing in under-sized prospects to kick the tires on. As far as I can tell none of the guys under 5'-9" and 180 lbs. (+/-) have ever worked out.
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Archer was a wasted draft pick. My prediction? By 2016 he will have changed his number to 86'd
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Who? Who was so much better after our pick? Travis Carie was the best CB and we passed on him in the 4th, twice in the 5th and twice in the 6th. Jonathan Newsom was the best OLB with 6.5 sacks but we passed on him twice after the Archer pick. And I can't think of ONE safety after Archer that did squat. So there were a lot of misses at CB, OLB, and S after the Archer pick we could have went with instead but not many guys that did anything. A 3rd round pick has a 12% chance of doing ANYTHING in the NFL. I mean to even start a football game. That's why there's a ton of guys who didn't do anything after Archer and only a handful that did. I never saw Archer as a 1,000 yard back or 1,000 yard receiver. I saw him as a guy who had potential to make mismatches for defenses and potentially can take our best offensive weapon off of special teams duties. It's been one year so I am not giving up hope but worst case scenario he washes out of the team and we are done with him. Just like 88% of the third round picks will end up like.
Had a big need for a cb, and I wanted Brashaud Breeland from Clemson. Washington drafted him and he had a great year. That's ok...we got archer. At elast we got Martavius Bryant, but we were sooo lucky to get him.
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So, again, when I asked the ENTIRE SITE to name WHO they would have chosen, AT THE TIME of the draft, one guy had the balls to name the "10 players we will wish we'd have taken instead of Dri" Well, so far, they've all for the most part sucked. That whole hindsight GM thing makes people look like fortune tellers, but when you need to post the name of the dude at the time, well, yeah, not so much.
Season stats
Ellington 6-62 yards (wr)
Reynolds- No starts, no stats
Antonio Richardson- No starts no stats
Carl Bradford 0 games played, zero stats
Ryan Carrethers 12 tackles
Justin Ellis- 16 tackles
Daquan Jones- 8 tackles
Jarred Abbrederis no starts, no stats
Cameron Fleming - 7games played, 2 started week2 and week4
Nevin Lawson - 2 games played 1 tackle
Dri Archer 10 carries 40 yards 7 receptions 23 yards.
He's not lighting the world on fire, but neither is the list of superstars we should have taken in his place. We'll know more by the end of this year.
Joe
Season stats
Ellington 6-62 yards (wr)
Reynolds- No starts, no stats
Antonio Richardson- No starts no stats
Carl Bradford 0 games played, zero stats
Ryan Carrethers 12 tackles
Justin Ellis- 16 tackles
Daquan Jones- 8 tackles
Jarred Abbrederis no starts, no stats
Cameron Fleming - 7games played, 2 started week2 and week4
Nevin Lawson - 2 games played 1 tackle
Dri Archer 10 carries 40 yards 7 receptions 23 yards.
He's not lighting the world on fire, but neither is the list of superstars we should have taken in his place. We'll know more by the end of this year.
Joe
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Breeland had a good year, his numbers are almost identical to our very own big play Willie Gay last year, he's got a few more tackles, but willie has one more INT. Hopefully we get a corner or two somehow this year.
Joe
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This was addressed in the thread from which you copy/pasted this. Several of the players listed played more than Archer and graded out much better. Archer, OTOH, was incapable of winning KR, PR, slot, or even RB3 snaps.
I mean, my God, you're using tackle stats from backup CBs and NTs. Guys who spent the year on IR even. LOL
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Lets also not forget that he wasn't even an option when Bell went down. They went to an undrafted rookie FA signed off the practice squad, then a signed off waivers the week OF the playoff game only to START cast off RB. Archer didn't receive ANY increase in snaps with a desperate need for a RB.
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So, they played more, and their numbers sucked. That's an awesome argument.
Listen, here is the bottom line, none of those guys are doing **** so far, neither is Archer. He was drafted to return punts and kicks, didn't do either one very well. He caught a few nice passes, but then tripped over blades of grass or got blown over by a stiff breeze. Does that mean he's not worth where we selected him? Well, so far I'd say there isn't enough data to know. I think I looked for "passes defended" for the CB's, and unless I missed a few, I didn't see ****. It is what it is, the amount of **** dripping that went on here over a ******* 3rd rounder and I would have expected first ballot hall of famers left and right after our little Dri. Turns out, talent at that end of the draft is exactly what you would expect MOSTLY MISSES. I don't know if Dri will end up being one, but if he doesn't it means he beat the odds.
Joe
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LOL. Which numbers sucked? Tackle stats for the rotational NTs? Tackle numbers for a CB who tore his knee in Week One?
Ellis played 642 snaps. He was credited with 10 hurries, 25 tackles, and 15 solo stops at/behind the line. In other words, he just blew Archer out of the water ten times over. He even outplayed Tuitt, in fact, on a lot more snaps.
Ellington added some rushing production and scored a TD - still a foreign concept to Archer. Ellington also finished #7 in the NFL in kickoff returns, a role that waved bye-bye to Archer about 30 seconds into the season. (He had already been taken off of PR.) So, advantage Ellington.
Carrethers was seeing 12 snaps a game as a rotational NT, grading positively vs. the run and the pass, before an injury ended his season. He finished with 6 solo stops at/behind the line. That alone was more than Archer contributed.
Fleming played 246 snaps and, unlike Archer, did so at an actual football position. PFF credits him with 3 positive games and 6 negative games. That's not awesome, but compared to Archer's 0 positive moments, it was definitely favorable.
Lawson was lost in Week 1 to IR, but played 82% of snaps in his first NFL game. He and the Lions' other CBs combined to hold the NYG outside receivers to 2 rec, 1 yard. So, in his only NFL game, he accomplished more than 13 games worth of Dri Archer.
You simply don't know what you're talking about, and are claiming all of these guys sucked simply because you haven't heard them on ESPN's Subway Fresh Hot Take Coors Six-Pack.
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To research Archer's stats, I looked for anything, goddamned anything. I found 63 yards from scrimmage and less than 4 yards per TOUCH. I was amazed that he didn't fumble, until I saw he only touched the ball only 27 times all year - including returns. (Though he did, of course, suffer an injury, roughly his 459th since beginning college.)
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he didnt fumble? i didnt keep up with that.
by comparison, a similar player, Chris Rainey has six fumbles in two seasons.
both CAN be electric when they have the ball. though both lack the bulk to absorb hits.
the guy I wanted, Jaylen Watkins, had 4 tackles in 3 games and a single pass defensed.
can't say he burned the barn down with his play either.
by comparison, a similar player, Chris Rainey has six fumbles in two seasons.
both CAN be electric when they have the ball. though both lack the bulk to absorb hits.
the guy I wanted, Jaylen Watkins, had 4 tackles in 3 games and a single pass defensed.
can't say he burned the barn down with his play either.
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I've done some analysis on "3rd round picks" from 1995-2004.
There are approximately 330-340 picks in this time.
Of those, I found 90 (27%) to become decent contributors to a team - 30+ AV and/or 120 games played. Some examples of players reaching this threshold are Chris Hope, Max Starks, Josh McCown, Andre Goodman, Mike Gandy, Kevan Barlow, Derrick Burgess. These aren't pro bowlers but they CONTRIBUTE and get starts for your team.
Of those 90, I found 33 (10%) to be very good starters - 50+ AV. Kareem McKensie, Laverneous Coles, Darrell Jackson, Jeremiah Trotter, Olin Kreutz, Mike Vrabel, Duce Staley, Anotnio Freeman, Will Witherspoon, Brian Westbrook. Some of these guys get an occasional "peak" pro bowl years and other accumulate their AV through years of average starter service. Still very quality picks.
Of those 33, 12 (3.6%) are GREAT players - 80+ AV. Curtis Martin, Terrell Owens, Ronde Barber, Jason Taylor, Hines Ward, Ahman Green, Joey Porter, Steve Smith, Adrian Wilson, Lance Briggs, Jason Witten, Darnell Dockett. Some of these are hall-of-famers or very close to it.
The problem I have with a pick like Archer is you are eliminating ANY CHANCE of finding one of those 10% or better players. A return man/specialty gadget guy on offense is never going to develop into a contributor/starter enough to get solid contribution value to your franchise over his career. I would submit it's IMPOSSIBLE for him with his skill set to accomplish 50+ AV in his career and very, very unlikely to accomplish 30+ AV.
Every draft has about 10 good players of which 3-4 are very good players in the 3rd round (50+ AV) and one of those is likely a game changing player. By drafting Archer we completely threw away our lottery ticket at finding those guys.
That is stupid.
There are approximately 330-340 picks in this time.
Of those, I found 90 (27%) to become decent contributors to a team - 30+ AV and/or 120 games played. Some examples of players reaching this threshold are Chris Hope, Max Starks, Josh McCown, Andre Goodman, Mike Gandy, Kevan Barlow, Derrick Burgess. These aren't pro bowlers but they CONTRIBUTE and get starts for your team.
Of those 90, I found 33 (10%) to be very good starters - 50+ AV. Kareem McKensie, Laverneous Coles, Darrell Jackson, Jeremiah Trotter, Olin Kreutz, Mike Vrabel, Duce Staley, Anotnio Freeman, Will Witherspoon, Brian Westbrook. Some of these guys get an occasional "peak" pro bowl years and other accumulate their AV through years of average starter service. Still very quality picks.
Of those 33, 12 (3.6%) are GREAT players - 80+ AV. Curtis Martin, Terrell Owens, Ronde Barber, Jason Taylor, Hines Ward, Ahman Green, Joey Porter, Steve Smith, Adrian Wilson, Lance Briggs, Jason Witten, Darnell Dockett. Some of these are hall-of-famers or very close to it.
The problem I have with a pick like Archer is you are eliminating ANY CHANCE of finding one of those 10% or better players. A return man/specialty gadget guy on offense is never going to develop into a contributor/starter enough to get solid contribution value to your franchise over his career. I would submit it's IMPOSSIBLE for him with his skill set to accomplish 50+ AV in his career and very, very unlikely to accomplish 30+ AV.
Every draft has about 10 good players of which 3-4 are very good players in the 3rd round (50+ AV) and one of those is likely a game changing player. By drafting Archer we completely threw away our lottery ticket at finding those guys.
That is stupid.
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Idioteque
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His college fumble rate was so atrociously awful, I'd expected at least one or two fumbles, even on the 50ish touches I figured he'd get. (As it turned out, he got half of that.)
True. So does DeSean Jackson, but he learned the nuances of an NFL position and got onto the field. Archer has apparently - this is the coaching staff's take, not just mine - failed to show even backup capability at RB or WR, and was benched very early from both return jobs.
so now we're comparing Dri to DeSean Jackson? that's a bit preposterous, is it not?
this is what people mean when they say "moving the goal posts"
this is what people mean when they say "moving the goal posts"