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Don't let winning mask an issue. "Bill Cowher"

Ron Burgundy said:
I think we did until 2005 when Cowher sort of got out of his own way for a change and let Whiz run the offense.
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1994 AFCCG, we led the entire game until there was around 8 minutes to go, Neil threw it 52 times that game, and it wasn't because we were behind.

1997 AFCCG we were leading, Bettis was running great, we were in FG range to go up 13-7 I believe, instead we are throwing and Kordell throws into double coverage in the endzone for a pick.

2001 AFCCG, we threw the ball 28 times in the first half compared to only 8 or 9 rushes.

Difference is you need a legit QB to make throws, something we didn't have until Ben. Something Tomlin has had for 12 seasons.

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Coryea said:
That's all great, but I've pointed out we didn't play Marty ball under Cowher in the playoffs.

Cowher was a better coach, not sure why people have a problem when someone says that, I don't see anyone saying he's an all time great.

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People would rather believe a lie than admit the truth. Fact is Cowher did more with less. It was a different era where Cowher was having to replace players every single year while Tomlin had the same exact team for years. Hell Tomlin can't replace one ILB while Cowher was having to replace guys like Nickerson, Woodson, Searcy ETC.. almost every year. Even guys he drafted he saw left in FA because the Steelers couldn't afford them.

Now we have people that either don't know the history or are just forgetting how things were back then. Tomlin has had a gravy train. No real FAs to worry about, no power struggle with the HFO, HOF Qb, ETC.. and some people think they are the same? BULLSHIT!! Cowher is twice the coach Tomlin is. The aren't identical in the least.
 
90% of the fanbase, former coaches and players all have come out and basically said Mike Tomlin isn't the guy for the job and are fed up with the fact he consistently fails to produce while having the most talented skill position guys in the league.
Everyone is so sick and tired of the same coaches and the "Steeler Way" crock of ****.
Brown is a hard working passionate guy who sees everything that is so upsetting to the rest of us magnified by 1000, Horrible coaching, overpaying the wrong guys, Not paying the guys they could have paid to give them the best shot at winning. (Bell)
I don't blame AB one bit for being so upset with this piece of **** embarrassment of an organization
 
Vader said:
People would rather believe a lie than admit the truth. Fact is Cowher did more with less. It was a different era where Cowher was having to replace players every single year while Tomlin had the same exact team for years. Hell Tomlin can't replace one ILB while Cowher was having to replace guys like Nickerson, Woodson, Searcy ETC.. almost every year. Even guys he drafted he saw left in FA because the Steelers couldn't afford them.

Now we have people that either don't know the history or are just forgetting how things were back then. Tomlin has had a gravy train. No real FAs to worry about, no power struggle with the HFO, HOF Qb, ETC.. and some people think they are the same? BULLSHIT!! Cowher is twice the coach Tomlin is. The aren't identical in the least.
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I don't think Cowher did more with less. He had the top defense in the league, a HOF RB, and a HOF caliber receiver in Ward with solid playmaking TEs (Green and Bruner). This was an era when running and D could win championships. Giants did, Redskins did, Dallas did. All heavy D and excellent running games. QBs were less of a factor back then when Byner and Simms and Aikman were winning SBs. Hell Denver couldn't win until they got a running game, and the Ravens were the last team to do it with D and RBs before the QB era started.
 
"I would help JuJu (Smith-Schuster) and (Antonio Brown) and some of their younger guys, bring my experience," Pryor said. "There are a couple of other teams that would be great fits, but definitely would love that opportunity, especially to play for a coach like Coach Tomlin, that would be awesome."
 
Cope said:
I don't think Cowher did more with less. He had the top defense in the league, a HOF RB, and a HOF caliber receiver in Ward with solid playmaking TEs (Green and Bruner). This was an era when running and D could win championships. Giants did, Redskins did, Dallas did. All heavy D and excellent running games. QBs were less of a factor back then when Byner and Simms and Aikman were winning SBs. Hell Denver couldn't win until they got a running game, and the Ravens were the last team to do it with D and RBs before the QB era started.
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He built the #1 defense... he didn't inherit it. Also those "defensive" teams you talked about had QBs like Aikman, Simms and Rypien. Nobody won just by defense. That's a myth. Also Green left after 3 years with Cowher. Do you not know any of this? Bruner? Seriously? He was replacing both offensive and defensive players every ******* year. Yet he had the #1 defense but had very little consistency because they were learning to play with each other. Go back and look at the teams from one year to the other.

Tomlin has a HOF QB, WR, and RB in a passing league and hasn't won **** with them. At least Cowher was knocking on the door. Tomlin can't even get to the porch. They aren't even close.
 
Vader said:
He built the #1 defense... he didn't inherit it. Also those "defensive" teams you talked about had QBs like Aikman, Simms and Rypien. Nobody won just by defense. That's a myth. Also Green left after 3 years with Cowher. Do you not know any of this? Bruner? Seriously? He was replacing both offensive and defensive players every ******* year. Yet he had the #1 defense but had very little consistency because they were learning to play with each other. Go back and look at the teams from one year to the other.

Tomlin has a HOF QB, WR, and RB in a passing league and hasn't won **** with them. At least Cowher was knocking on the door. Tomlin can't even get to the porch. They aren't even close.
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I come down on the side of "Tomlin won with Cowher's players". No apologies will be forthcoming.
The evidence is clear. All of Cowher's player's except Ben are gone (and yes, I know Cowher wanted to draft Rivers instead).
Shades can't draft or coach a defense for ****.
Shades can't be a game day coach for ****.
Shades needs a good kicker to go 13-3. Shades with a ****** kicker is lucky to be .500.
Shades' natural state is somewhere between 8-8 and 10-6 with at best a first-round playoff loss. That's as good as it's going to get with a team of his draft picks and his coaching.
Despite all that, Shades is still a Top Five head coach in this league. This ain't the 70's with five or six future HOF head coaches roaming the sidelines every week.
 
Cope said:
I don't think Cowher did more with less. He had the top defense in the league, a HOF RB, and a HOF caliber receiver in Ward with solid playmaking TEs (Green and Bruner). This was an era when running and D could win championships. Giants did, Redskins did, Dallas did. All heavy D and excellent running games. QBs were less of a factor back then when Byner and Simms and Aikman were winning SBs. Hell Denver couldn't win until they got a running game, and the Ravens were the last team to do it with D and RBs before the QB era started.
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Here's a breakdown of a couple of Cowher's teams vs. the Steelers from this past season (includes players acquired via FA or trade).

1995 Steelers
Starters by Round
1-4
2-6
3-2
4-1
5-2
6-3
8-1
10-1
11-1
UDFA-1

12 players drafted in Rounds 1-3, 10 players after the 4th

2005 Steelers
Starters by Round (23considering Kreider/Tuman had 8 & 9 starts, respectively)
1-8
2-2
3-4
4-4
5-2
6-1
UDFA-2

14 players drafted in Rounds 1-3, 9 players after the 4th
Cowher had some all-time players on this team that he helped draft and develop: Ward (3), Porter (3), Smith (4), Taylor (4). A couple of acquisitions that are some of the team's best ever: Hartings and Farrior. A star UDFA: Parker. Future HOF first-round draft picks: Roethlisberger, Faneca, Polamalu and two additional all-time great Steelers: Miller and Hampton.

2018 Steelers
Offensive Starters by Round
1-8
2-5
3-2
4-1
5-1
6-2
UDFA-3

15 players drafted in Rounds 1-3, 7 players after the 4th
Tomlin doesn't have an extensive list of mid-late round developmental players: Brown (6) is the best in the game and Conner (3) had a great first year as a starter. Haden was a terrific acquisition and definitely one of the best in team history. A trio of UDFA offensive linemen starters: Foster, Villanueva, Feiler. Maybe not HOF (yet), but some excellent first-round talent: Heyward, Pouncey, DeCastro, Watt and a developing star second-rounder in JuJu.

Did Cowher do more with less? As a team, probably not, but he helped to develop a lot of mid-round players into stars and brought in the best talent this team has had since the 70s.

Tomlin has brought in some very good players as well. Maybe not as many all-time team greats, but some very good talent. However, only one AFC Championship game appearance when he had arguably the best QB-RB-WR trio in the game along with a excellent offensive line and a missed playoff appearance this year, I can say Tomlin has done less with more (when compared with other teams in the league).
 
The problems have been ignored for too long. One giant problem that comes to mind was the National Anthem. Tomlin didn't want to keep the team out of the controversy, he made keeping the team in the tunnel HIS protest. Keep your team out of it by having them do what they always do, be on the field for the Anthem. That was a direct SLAP in the face of Alejandro Villanueva! That was a disgrace and the first time I was completely embarrassed to be a Steelers fan. I know know how it is to be a cheating Patriots fan but in no way would I defend what Tomlin did. If the owners think the fans forgot about it their friggin mistaken. Not until Tomlin is gone will anyone offended get passed that. The Milatary is who made everything in thos country possible. If I was the owner I would of announced Tomlin being released the next morning or if I could it would of been right after the game. Nope they don't care about player problems and it's become a money/win burn the team to do it attitude that is the reason the Steelers are a failure. Today the Anthem stunt still boils my blood. What a great opportunity this team gave up this year. Now it's all down hill into a rebuilding team.

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Vader said:
He built the #1 defense... he didn't inherit it. Also those "defensive" teams you talked about had QBs like Aikman, Simms and Rypien. Nobody won just by defense. That's a myth. Also Green left after 3 years with Cowher. Do you not know any of this? Bruner? Seriously? He was replacing both offensive and defensive players every ******* year. Yet he had the #1 defense but had very little consistency because they were learning to play with each other. Go back and look at the teams from one year to the other.

Tomlin has a HOF QB, WR, and RB in a passing league and hasn't won **** with them. At least Cowher was knocking on the door. Tomlin can't even get to the porch. They aren't even close.
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I didn't make a reference to built vs inherited. Just stating D won superbowls back then Dallas' D was fantastic, as was the Giants, and Redskins back then HOFers all over those rosters. I'm not saying Tomlin is better than Cowher, I'm saying they BOTH underachieved. Top 2 in the AFC 5 years and only made it to 1 SB. That's underachieving.

And Aikman may be a HOFer, but without the #1 RB all time & Larry Brown (ugh), he doesn't win those SBs. Currently He's #38 all time in passing. Behind Simms at #35. Those teams won with D and Running games.
 
Cope said:
And his team was 100% behind the visiting team in their 4 losses...
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For me the loss to the Chargers is still the worst in my lifetime.
 
I can be on board with saying both coaches underachieved. But MT is doing it with one of the greatest and underrated QBs of all time. We can debate the different degrees in comparison but that is a notable difference.

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slashsteel said:
I can be on board with saying both coaches underachieved. But MT is doing it with one of the greatest and underrated QBs of all time. We can debate the different degrees in comparison but that is a notable difference.
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Shades has a Top Five QB, the best WR in the game, last year the best RB in the game, this year one of the best RB's, and the best OL in the game. This year his QB led the league in passing yards and pass attempts, yet somehow manages to lose to Oakland and Denver, tie Cleveland, and not make the playoffs.
 
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slashsteel said:
I can be on board with saying both coaches underachieved. But MT is doing it with one of the greatest and underrated QBs of all time. We can debate the different degrees in comparison but that is a notable difference.

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In Cowher's case once he got noted "under rated QB he went to SB year 2. Could you imagine what Cowher's SB trips would look like, one more as a gimme as TOMLIN took a Cowher built team there imeadiately. What would have happened thre / 5. / 8 / current is anybody's guess but I would wager heavily that Cowher would have entered and been way more successful in play offs and SB appearances, with the under rated QB at his helm for the last twelve years. Bill would have been "LESS" underachieving than Mike.




Salute the nation
 
Drink IRON City said:
In Cowher's case once he got noted "under rated QB he went to SB year 2. Could you imagine what Cowher's SB trips would look like, one more as a gimme as TOMLIN took a Cowher built team there imeadiately. What would have happened thre / 5. / 8 / current is anybody's guess but I would wager heavily that Cowher would have entered and been way more successful in play offs and SB appearances, with the under rated QB at his helm for the last twelve years. Bill would have been "LESS" underachieving than Mike.
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A couple of areas Cowher was better than Tomlin is 1st-round draft picks and having a clear philosophy for the team.

After Colbert came aboard, the Steelers under Cowher had seven selections, two future Hall of Famers and zero busts, unless you want to include Simmons with a health-shortened career. Just too many busts (Jones, Burns) or underwhelming picks (Mendenhall, Hood, Dupree). Evaluation has been a concern as well. They thought Hood could play DE in their system. Timmons was drafted as an OLB before being moved to the inside with Jones being a bust and Dupree having to switch sides to see even some mild success at the position.

When it came to the philosophy, you knew exactly what you were getting with the Steelers on both sides of the ball. Beyond anything, they were going to be physical. It took awhile for the Steelers to identify a true offensive scheme under Tomlin and the defense has had so many failed high draft picks it is often in a state of transition until they can get the proper personnel to run it.
 
If one wants to argue that Cowher underachieved in the sense he should have reached one or two more Super Bowls, I can agree, but to argue that he underachieved just as much as Tomlin is bullshit.

With the same rosters, Cowher would not have gone four straight seasons without winning a playoff game like Tomlin did in the 2011-2014 period or missed the playoffs entirely with this season's team.

No ******* way.

And yes, Cowher did it with less considering the significance of the QB position. Under Cowher, not many other teams were winning as much as the Steelers with QBs the caliber of O'Donnell and Stewart.

No coach in recent memory has done less with more than Tomlin. The Steelers have had a four or five year window with a top QB, RB, WR and OL and the most they have to show for it was one sad AFCC game appearance.

Injuries in the playoffs were a factor, but just as big a factor were the continual bad losses to weak teams in the regular season, hurting the Steelers playoff positioning, as well as Tomlin inability to build a defense capable of sufficiently complementing the offense by forcing turnovers and limiting big plays in crucial situations.

The latter was on display in last year's playoff loss. The Steelers had Ben, Bell and Brown all healthy and balling. but they lost because the Steelers defense could not prevent an average,at best, Jaguars offense from scoring five TDs on them at home.

I just cannot understand between that loss, the missing the playoffs this season and the circus surrounding it how Tomlin is still the Steelers coach.

I really makes one question the accountability coming down from the very top, to be honest.
 
Cowher mostly over achieved. Making the Super bowl or AFC Championship game with Tomzack, Graham, Stewart, Miller and O'Donnell isn't easy. Yet he did it

Bill won almost all his game when he had the lead, lost far less to inferior teams, and IMO was much better in terms of understanding the game in comparison to Tomlin.

Bill is 5-1 with Ben in the playoffs? Tomlin isn't close...
 
Coach said:
Cowher mostly over achieved. Making the Super bowl or AFC Championship game with Tomzack, Graham, Stewart, Miller and O'Donnell isn't easy. Yet he did it

Bill won almost all his game when he had the lead, lost far less to inferior teams, and IMO was much better in terms of understanding the game in comparison to Tomlin.

Bill is 5-1 with Ben in the playoffs? Tomlin isn't close...
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Bill was 5-1 in 3 years with Ben, Tomlin is 8-7 with Ben in 12 years, pathetic.
 
Ron Burgundy said:
Shades has a Top Five QB, the best WR in the game, last year the best RB in the game, this year one of the best RB's, and the best OL in the game. This year his QB led the league in passing yards and pass attempts, yet somehow manages to lose to Oakland and Denver, tie Cleveland, and not make the playoffs.
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It's what happens when you have a locker room full of me first players. Especially your star players. Add in a coach that has not learned from his own mistakes over the years. Plus an owner that seems to meddle in areas they shouldn't and won't act when they should. The end result is a franchise in disarray. A shame.
 
Drink IRON City said:
In Cowher's case once he got noted "under rated QB he went to SB year 2. Could you imagine what Cowher's SB trips would look like, one more as a gimme as TOMLIN took a Cowher built team there imeadiately. What would have happened thre / 5. / 8 / current is anybody's guess but I would wager heavily that Cowher would have entered and been way more successful in play offs and SB appearances, with the under rated QB at his helm for the last twelve years. Bill would have been "LESS" underachieving than Mike.
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Also in the latter part of Cowher's career he got out of the habit of frequently changing offensive coordinators. If he had a good OC they left for another job because he was hard to work for (Erhardt, Gailey, Mularkey) and if he had a sucky OC they got fired after a year or two (Sherman, Gilbride). I don't think Korky was ever going to the Hall of Fame but he might have been better if he didn't have a new OC every year.

Kevin Gilbride's greatest hits:

 
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