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Steelers select Dri Archer in Round 3

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Can't act, can't sing. Can dance a little."

That's how the guy who gave Fred Astaire his Hollywood screen test rated the greatest hoofer of all time. Debussy's timeless "Clair de Lune" was described as "ugly to the ears," by the most respected Parisian critic of the time. "Fiddler on the Roof" was described as "nothing special" by the Variety stringer who reviewed its off-Broadway opening. And Rex Reed and most of the other jerks who review movies panned the greatest movie of all time, "A Christmas Story." (They just hated producer Bob Clark, because he did those Porky's movies and Reed would never know what to do with a Red Ryder BB gun, anyway).

But my favorite review of all time was Vito Stellino's review of the Pittsburgh Steelers1974 draft in the Post-Gazette.

"The Steelers seem to have come out of the first five rounds of the draft appreciably strengthened at wide receiver but nowhere else. They didn't get a tight end. They didn't get a punter. They didn't get an offensive tackle who might've shored up what could well become a weakness. What they did get was Swann, who seems to be a sure-pop to help; Lambert, who figures to be the No. 5 linebacker if he pans out; and three question marks."

Guess he didn't think much of that Stallworth kid or that 5th round pick out of Wisconsin, Webster.

You never know. Great picks can meet with awful misfortune, like Gabe Rivera or the Penguins' Michel Briere. A tragic car crash ended Rivera's career. Another ended Briere's life. So many other seemingly great choices have met with career ending injuries.

Often a great quarterback choice ends up with a terrible team, and is beset by injuries because the team can't protect him. Other good quarterbacks - guys like Matt Cassell - have the luxury of sitting on the bench and developing behind great quarterbacks....and they become great value when they are either plugged in to sub for the injured star or traded away for a first or second round draft pick.

And sometimes, guys who look good in college turn out to be great when the hit the pros. Yep, you really can "coach 'em up." And guys in the locker room play a big part in attitude adjustment.

The Steelers didn't get their punter in the 1974 draft, but they actually did get a tight end named Randy Grossman who today is the proud owner of four Super Bowl rings.

The NFL Player Selection Meeting (draft) is sort of like Christmas, are we are all like Ralphie - waiting to see if we got our Red Ryder BB gun or that shutdown corner we've been asking Santa to bring. We love it. It's fun, and it's fun to see what the other kids got. But I never forget Vito Stellino's instant analysis of the greatest draft ever. And, remember, Vito was a helluva football writer.

And when I read and hear the pronouncements of all the "experts" on the blogs and on NFLTV and ESPN, I recall the wisdom of the late, great ABC News economics correspondent, Dan Cordtz. Every so often, Dan would come in to do radio reports on the lastest jobless figures or factory output numbers. Really boring stuff, but sometimes very important. He would do a 30-second report, giving the numbers and a brief explanation. Then we were required to do an informal QnA, where he would explain the figures in layman's language.

Invariably, my question to Dan would be, "what's it all mean, Dan?" And invariably, the bald-headed, moustachioed sage would do a countdown and give the same answer, "Three, two, one,.....It don't mean ****."

Dan's gone now, but his answer still stands with so much of the post-draft analysis.

The Fred Astaire thing is a poor analogy. "Can't act, can't sing, can't dance a little" was one person's scouting report. If Fred Astaire had one leg and was 200 pounds overweight, he wouldn't have been a great performer, even with all the heart in the world. John Stallworth had WR size, WR durability, and a WR skillset. These comparisons don't work. Jack Lambert and Zach Thomas bucked the odds and became great MLBs, but they had the physical abilities to do so, and they didn't get injured every time a player from Liberty or Arkansas State hit them. Archer hasn't shown these qualities.

Look, nobody here is trying to make mystical predictions. What we're doing is using history and common sense to analyze the pick, and by all logic, it was a very poor gamble, since nobody of Archer's ilk (not just size - fumbling, durability, lack of a true position) succeeds. History suggests Archer won't have a role in the NFL, and that the Steelers have been trying to find a super-athletic open-field slash guy for many years and have usually failed, and that Archer lacks 95% of the qualities needed to be that guy. Common sense tells us that we skipped over a lot of future NFL contributors to take him. (I don't know which ones will become good, but I guarantee a handful of players taken after Archer will be big-time contributors. Archer may himself, but there are probably 50 guys taken later that have much, much better chances to.)

Archer could well become the first guy with his size and skillset to become a contributor. Marcus Gilbert could be moved to WR and catch 200 passes this year. We're not trying to "prove" the future. It doesn't change the fact that his odds are incredibly long, and it looks unlikely he'll be the guy to buck that trend.
 
Very well put. We're not in a position to spend a #3 on a luxury pick, not in such an excellent draft.

I agree. Thing is, Archer isn't even a "luxury pick" in my eyes. Martavis Bryant is a luxury pick: a guy with big potential but some red flags. The Packers drafting three receivers despite already being loaded with WRs is a luxury. In other words: you may get something huge from the player. Archer isn't that to me. Even if his many red flags work themselves out naturally and he DOES stay on the field and DOES stop fumbling constantly, his upside is severely capped. He's tiny and has no true position. Kick returner, 5 snaps a game. That looks like his upside, and the value of kick returners is falling off the face of the earth.
 
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All I'm going to say on this is that the Steelers have had way too many misses to be trying to hit a home run with a player like this. Of the 2012 draft, Decastro fell into their laps and a monkey could have pulled that trigger. Spence has been injured (I'll give them a mulligan on that), Adams has been a major disappointment and Beechum has been a reasonable spot starter. The rest is gone. And one of them is Rainey. Need I say more.
 
Uh he played for freakin kent state have they won ten games in ten years?
You can knock the Mac all you want but a lot if great players came from there including BIG BEN and Moss

So did some other Steelers you might remember, Jack Lambert, James Harrison. There may be others but that is two off the top of my head. We have also picked players from the sec that have not impressed a great deal as well. One should not judge your talent based on the schools they went to but on their actual performance. Bill Nunn was great at finding players from schools that nobody else looked at.
 
Yeah, because the school is the only reason we hate the pick. Jesus, it's like some of you pull a thread and just keep yanking like it's going to lead you to gold or something.
 
Totally wasnt comparing that draft class to this one. But whatever...
 
The kids undoing will be his turnovers. I think they said he had the highest rate in college football - something absurd like 1 fumble for every 7 or 8 touches. If I heard that correctly, he won't make it out of camp if he hasn't already somehow changed that.
 
If it makes y'all feel better, like it was posted earlier, just act like Bryant was drafted in the third and archer in the 4th. Just like last year bell in the second would of not been there then next round.
 
If it makes y'all feel better, like it was posted earlier, just act like Bryant was drafted in the third and archer in the 4th.
Amen! Maybe that will help get people off the ledge...
 
Amen! Maybe that will help get people off the ledge...
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424 touches in five years (he was ineligible for 2011). Lookout for this guy! The NFL will probably take it easier on him than the MAC did. Most guys notice that football gets slower, easier, and less physical once they hit the NFL.

Some points to sum up the idiocy of this pick:

1. Archer isn't small. He isn't a scatback. He isn't Darren Sproles, DeSean Jackson, Willie Parker, or any other smallish NFL player. He's miniscule. He's smaller than Chris effing Rainey. As TMC has pointed out repeatedly, there have been zero successful RBs that weigh 173 ******* pounds. There have been zero successful NFL WRs his size, especially ones who were college RBs and have incredibly short arms and small hands. Being tiny is a huge issue, not only because it opens you up to more injury concerns (which Archer has constantly had), but also because..

2. Sorry to break this, but NFL receivers cannot simply "run past" NFL DBs. If that's how it worked, Olympian and Florida WR John Capel would have made some Pro Bowls, and Donald Driver probably wouldn't have caught 700 passes. DBs do not just watch the receiver run and try to run next to him. They don't stand in awe of the speed of the WR in front of them and just struggle to nip at their heels. They shove them at the LOS. They position themselves in the way of the receiver so as to cut off their route. When the ball comes, they get physical and control the receiver while swatting at the ball.

Consider this: Archer ran 40 yards in 4.26 in shorts with no defenders. Now add full padding, eleven NFL defenders, and a route that needs to be run. Now factor in that, after the snap, the QB typically releases the ball in less than 3 seconds, maybe 4 if it's a go route. Now factor in Archer's constant injuries and fumbling tendencies. Then explain exactly how Archer is going to just sprint to daylight, football in hand, while eleven NFL defenders bend over and suck air.

3. Where is he going to play? This isn't Madden; actual football involves things beyond the ballcarrier. You wanna put Archer in as third-down back? Good, let's have him pick up a blitzing Terrell Suggs in the open field. Want him in the slot? Sure, let's watch him fight off the jam from a 5'10 200# cornerback and use his body to shield him from the ball, then catch it and absorb the hit. Let's have him block downfield on screens and short throws. You want him to return kickoffs? There aren't that many anymore. Return punts? He's never done that and is an injury and fumble case; not sure I want him catching the ball with three sprinting defenders in his face, especially since he has no experience doing it.

Obviously, these are not options. He's not going to pick up the rush, and he's not going to block downfield. So when he's on the field, the defense knows he's going to get the ball. Kinda erases most or all of the speed advantage and limits our playbook. Now, we've spent a 3rd on Chris Rainey II.

All of the "explosiveness!" and "versatility!" and "open space!" being talked about is a moot point if a guy (a) can't get on the field due to fumbles and a lack of offensive ability, and (b) can't secure the ball. You guys keep seeing visions of Eric Metcalf and Darren Sproles in your head, but they are not comparable players. The closest comparison to Archer is absolutely Chris Rainey, who looked dead each time he was hit. Then he usually fumbled for good measure.

4. Archer's size isn't the only knock on him, by a long shot. Even at 5'10 190, he's a big question mark. He fumbles a ton. More than Chris Rainey. He's constantly injured. He was academically ineligible in 2011. He doesn't have a position; he was a part-time RB and gimmick slot WR in school. His only strength - returning kickoffs, not punts - is being rapidly phased out of the NFL; kickoffs will probably be gone within five years. There's no way he can return NFL punts.

5. There are ramifications to wasting this pick. I know we all say, "Well, we filled all our holes later in the draft, so we're fine risking that third!!" Why? Because we drafted some guys late? We took roughly the #15 OT late in the fifth round. We took roughly the #25 CB in the 5th as well. And we snagged a 7th-round NT that probably won't make the team. And that sews up our holes? Do you guys really think that we're now set at CB and OT and NT? I like Shaq Richardson as a late-round developmental CB, but what are the realistic odds he ever becomes a starting-caliber CB for us? 5%? 10%? If that? A third-round pick is immensely valuable, especially when you have holes throughout your depth chart.

Sure gave a lot of reasons why he will fail. But one point. players who run better than 4.3 do run by people-even in the NFL. Willie Parker ran by people-so did Mike Wallace. They did not have a ton of moves, great strength etc but they were very productive cause they ran by people. Rainey was closer to 4.5 than 4.3 and he never did. Let's hope Archer can.
 
Sure gave a lot of reasons why he will fail. But one point. players who run better than 4.3 do run by people-even in the NFL. Willie Parker ran by people-so did Mike Wallace. They did not have a ton of moves, great strength etc but they were very productive cause they ran by people. Rainey was closer to 4.5 than 4.3 and he never did. Let's hope Archer can.

Because there is no way, i mean absolutely none that his coaches can scheme him to get a free release off the line. Because even though with his quickness there is no way he can be taught to use that quickness to escape CBs trying to jam him. Neither Willie Parker or Mike Wallace had the combination of quickness and speed. Screw it he has no chance to have success.
 
Rainey was closer to 4.5 than 4.3 and he never did.

Chris Rainey ran a 4.36 at the combine and a 4.35 at his pro day. He had the same 10-yard split as Archer. Two years after people said the same things about Rainey, he is now slow.

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From the other thread, but it's relevant.



Everyone else on the field also played in the MAC, lol.

Through 5 years in college and 47 games (2009-2013, out 2011 with an injury) he played against 4 ranked teams:

2010:
Penn State (22)

2012:
Rutgers (18)
Nothern Illinois (19)

2013:
LSU (8)

Cumulative stats against ranked opponents:

37 Car, 120 Yds, 3.24 Avg, 2 TD
10 Rec, 140 Yds, 14 YPC,

Also, he's had 3 injuries. He's tiny, frail, and fumbles a lot. He's fast, but so is the rest of the NFL. The deck's stacked against him.

Fumble issues can be fixed....its proven...and just because a person plays in a small/mid major conference means what exactly ? Jerry Rice, T Owens, Greg Jennings, Antonio Brown, Andre Reed,Walter Payton played at small schools or non major conferences. And of course the NFL is fast...but how many athletes in the league run a 4.23 ? You can count on one hand

But im sure the scouts saw something more than just speed in him.
 
Tavon Austin played WR in college, he wasn't a maybe when the Rams drafted him. The measurables are nice, can he run a route, and can he catch with the speed difference of the NFL? IF he can catch the ball and get into space he can create problems for defenses. To just take workout numbers and say he can be what Austin was as a rookie is foolish though.

I think the comparison to Tavon Austin is justified. Now Austin did catch more passes (100+ last two seasons) but a lot of people don't realize he had 72 rushing attempts his senior season and if I remember correctly was listed as a WR/RB. Also, I keep reading about how Austin is a true receiver... not really because at WVU they have the "air raid" offense which does not have a full and true route tree in it. It's a four wide trips to one side and a lot of verts and shallow cross routes. I think that is part of why Austin struggled in year one. Now Archer is more of a RB than WR but 99 catches for 1194 yards and 12 TD's means he can catch the football. Now his learning curve in route running will be tougher than Austin but again we did not invest the 8th overall pick in Archer but the 97th overall. What I see and hope from Archer is a guy you line up with Blount/Bell in a two RB set. You can split him out wide and see if you like the match up. Maybe they put a LB on him that gives Ben the option of audibling to a pass. Maybe it sucks the safety out and leaves a nice gap for Miller. Maybe you fake a quick bubble screen to him and instead do a delayed handoff up the middle while the safeties and LB's bite and clears out the middle for Bell/Blount. What I like about Archer is the X factor. If he has some big plays teams will take notes when he's in the game and teams will spend time practicing just for him taking time away from other preperation. I don't see Archer touching the ball 20+ times a game because he didn't even do that in College. He averages 11 carries, 3 receptions, and about 1 return a game in 2012 his big year. I look at him to touch the ball 5-10 times a game but to be a chess piece you make the other defense worry about.

I just don't know how you can be that upset with the end of the third round pick especially when half of you wanted Bryant who we got in the 4th anyways!
 
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Because there is no way, i mean absolutely none that his coaches can scheme him to get a free release off the line. Because even though with his quickness there is no way he can be taught to use that quickness to escape CBs trying to jam him. Neither Willie Parker or Mike Wallace had the combination of quickness and speed. Screw it he has no chance to have success.

Just that it's never. *******. Happened. Ever. But I'm sure a chronic fumbler and injury case is the one who will revolutionize the entire NFL.

But the NFL is notoriously non-physical. I can't believe nobody else ever thought of "run around the other guys." You folks are so far ahead of the game!
 
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And the Chris Rainey comparison has some validity to it. What I never liked about Rainey was his lack of moves. He was a straight line runner and when you watch him he used speed to get past guys. Archer has good feet and hips and makes guys miss. Now making a guy miss when you play Bowling Green or Buffalo is going to be easier than in the NFL but I hope the kid can do it and prove all the haters wrong.
 
Just that it's never. *******. Happened. Ever. But I'm sure a chronic fumbler and injury case is the one who will revolutionize the entire NFL.

But the NFL is notoriously non-physical. I can't believe nobody else ever thought of "run around the other guys." You folks are so far ahead of the game!

Archer's height and weight is virtually the same as McCluster's at the combine plus Archer has longer arms and bigger hands. So what exactly is it that's never happened?
 
I say, lets wait and see....we are all goin by projections on ALL these players.......some high rounders in the league will be cut within a couple years. Lots of undrafted ballers will have long careers. The unexpected happens every year in this league.
 
Yeah because Uncle Roger's NFL is the same football being played from 20 10 even 5 years ago.
 
I say, lets wait and see....we are all goin by projections on ALL these players.......some high rounders in the league will be cut within a couple years. Lots of undrafted ballers will have long careers. The unexpected happens every year in this league.

Which is all im saying dont speak in absolutes. He will never.....
 
Dri Archier is physically very much like Chris Rainey. Hopefully, is mentally more like Warrick Dunn or Brian Westbrook.
 
Archer's height and weight is virtually the same as McCluster's at the combine plus Archer has longer arms and bigger hands. So what exactly is it that's never happened?

McCluster is two inches taller (a big deal), carried a little more of a workload in college, didn't fumble as often, wasn't a walking injury, and played much better competition. And even then, McCluster has never been worth a third-round pick. He's been shuffled all over the place, ineffective as a receiver and completely removed from the running game. All of that athleticism has produced 6 offensive touchdowns in four years.
 
McCluster is two inches taller (a big deal), carried a little more of a workload in college, didn't fumble as often, wasn't a walking injury, and played much better competition. And even then, McCluster has never been worth a third-round pick. He's been shuffled all over the place, ineffective as a receiver and completely removed from the running game. All of that athleticism has produced 6 offensive touchdowns in four years.

And yet he was valued enough to get a 3-year contract for $12 million ($4.5 million) guaranteed from the Titans. Archer is exactly one inch shorter based on what I could find (5076 vs. 5086) and - as mentioned - has bigger hands and longer arms.

I would have done something different with pick #97 so you won't get an argument from me there, but you weaken your argument by going over the top and trying to assassinate this draft choice with hyperbole ("it's never happened before", "kickoffs are being phased out" etc.).
 
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