Time to put this BEN **** to rest!

[Vader]

No I did not this is 2015 salary numbers Mr. Worthless will be off our books then. I love Heath but at 5.666 he is not over paid that is why we are in salary cap problem every year. Heath is a very valuable blocker and mr clutch but he is getting near the end, I agree with what your saying about if we change ot's. I think of the names I mention the two that I woiuld not like to se go are Miller and Heyward but we have to do something about these big numbers. Take Allen for examaple we so over paid for him it is not funny, it use to be the other way around we use to sign guys to good contract before they went to fa and lock them up now we just let them go or over pay.

It's very difficult to read what you wrote. Are you saying Miller is over paid? If you are then you haven't looked at TE salaries lately. He's one of the top TEs in the league even at his age. Also the team is not in cap hell. They have money to sign players every year. The problem is that they are drafting duds and over paying these duds like Allen and Gilbert. Drafting is the issue not salary cap problems.

 

[diver]

Here's the thing:

Do any of you in the "let Ben walk and go to the Cardinals in FA" crowd have any idea what you're advocating? Despite Roethlisberger's inconsistencies, where would the Steeler be right now without him?

If you want to move on from him, fine, but it makes absolutely no sense to move on from him without telling Tomlin and Colbert to take a hike as well.

Due to the work of Tombert, the Steelers are lucky to be a four win team without Roethlisberger. That's just a fact.

If you are committed to totally reconstructing the franchise, which is what moving on from Roethlisberger would imply, there's no need to keep the current coach and GM, from my perspective

I really think that if they tell Tomlin and Colbert to take a hike, the new coach will send Ben on his way too.

Here is another thing with Ben. I know it has been discussed, but he just isn't getting better. Many times QBs get better later in their career. I'm old enough to remember Bradshaw. He was at his best from '78 on. Some of his best years were in the early '80s. He was fantastic in '82 early against Dallas and Cincy. Then the damn strike. After the strike was over, he was up and down a bit, but he played great in the playoff game against SD. He threw a pick late, but it never should have gotten to that, as the Steelers got robbed out of a pick that Mel Blount made in the end zone, and a play or two later SD scored. Without that SD doesn't win that game. Point is he was playing some of his best football. You only see a glimpse of that with Ben. And I don't buy this injury ****. Bradshaw took a number of big shots in his career.

On a side note, I always wondered if the Steelers could have added to their championships in '83 or '84 if Bradshaw was healthy. The still had some key old vets from the '70s that could still play. They had some decent young players as well, like Mike Merriweather and Keith Willis on defense.

 

[SteelChip]

He may be slowing / wearing down and may have a few years left. How many of those years will be high production, MEANING more than 8 wins a year. I'm NOT saying get rid of him as HOFers don't grow on trees. I am saying be prepared for his decline.
Salute the nation

This is my thought too. Time to get the 'heir to the throne' in camp and doin' his learnin' before we absolutely need him. Just think of how many wasted spots we have right now that we could use to groom a promising young QB. Maybe there won't be another really fast midget in next years draft and we can use that pick to find a good QB prospect.

It still puzzles me that we pay two DL guys to work out on the practice squad, learn the position and then we pick up a journeyman on his 8th team to fill Keisel's spot. If it takes so long for our premier draft pick to pick up the system, what's this lump gonna do but sit and watch.

 

[Coryea]

He's on pace to have more yards than ever, have his highest season comp% ever, will be close in TD's, and QB rating, but no he's not getting better.

Everyonew worships Tom Brady around here, but Ben has a higher career comp% than him and his QB rating is right there too.

 

[steelerscotty]

He's on pace to have more yards than ever, have his highest season comp% ever, will be close in TD's, and QB rating, but no he's not getting better.

Everyonew worships Tom Brady around here, but Ben has a higher career comp% than him and his QB rating is right there too.

Oh no, dont use facts! (sarcasm) We DONT LIKE facts as they interfere with our video-game/fantasy football mentality where we think trading our greatest QB ever will 100%, without a doubt, lead to 5 first round draft picks. None of which will be busts, but hey, even if they are we can just trade those and get more . . . GASP too many idiots on here (end of sarcasm) would turn us into the stains if they were running the team!

 

[topseed]

Here's the thing:

Do any of you in the "let Ben walk and go to the Cardinals in FA" crowd have any idea what you're advocating? Despite Roethlisberger's inconsistencies, where would the Steeler be right now without him?

If you want to move on from him, fine, but it makes absolutely no sense to move on from him without telling Tomlin and Colbert to take a hike as well.

Due to the work of Tombert, the Steelers are lucky to be a four win team without Roethlisberger. That's just a fact.

If you are committed to totally reconstructing the franchise, which is what moving on from Roethlisberger would imply, there's no need to keep the current coach and GM, from my perspective

Where would the Steelers be without Ben? Similarly out of the playoffs, but in much better drafting position. Ben is still good enough to make up the difference in 3-4 games per year. As I've been consistently reminded on here, 8-8 is not a losing record, and it's so wonderful that Coach Tomlin has never had a losing season. But the fact is, the Steelers haven't been able to draft well under Tomlin in middle or late position. This defense needs to be rebuilt, and they need a top-ten or maybe even top-five talent to lay the foundation.

I'd sacrifice Ben in a second if it meant a new coach and GM coming in, cleaning house, and reconstructing the team. There is no way Ben will be able to lift this team high enough to reach the Super Bowl in the meantime, and the Steelers will be stuck in mediocrity under Tomlin for another five years...then they'll still need an overhaul at that point.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Where would the Steelers be without Ben? Similarly out of the playoffs, but in much better drafting position. Ben is still good enough to make up the difference in 3-4 games per year. As I've been consistently reminded on here, 8-8 is not a losing record, and it's so wonderful that Coach Tomlin has never had a losing season. But the fact is, the Steelers haven't been able to draft well under Tomlin in middle or late position. This defense needs to be rebuilt, and they need a top-ten or maybe even top-five talent to lay the foundation.

I'd sacrifice Ben in a second if it meant a new coach and GM coming in, cleaning house, and reconstructing the team. There is no way Ben will be able to lift this team high enough to reach the Super Bowl in the meantime, and the Steelers will be stuck in mediocrity under Tomlin for another five years...then they'll still need an overhaul at that point.

The Steelers had only one top ten pick in the Bill Cowher era, and it was spent on Plaxico Burress. He was good, but exactly how instrumental was he in the resurgence of the Steelers in early 2000s?

People like to harp on the Steelers not picking near the top of the draft for so long, but where were the likes of Faneca, Ward, Porter, Aaron Smith, Hampton, Polamalu and Taylor drafted? Hell, the likes of Harrison, Willie Parker and Nate Washington were not even drafted.

The Steelers have not been able to evaluate and develop talent to that degree since Tomlin took over. That's just reality.

 

[Vader]

The Steelers had only one top ten pick in the Bill Cowher era, and it was spent on Plaxico Burress. He was good, but exactly how instrumental was he in the resurgence of the Steelers in early 2000s?

People like to harp on the Steelers not picking near the top of the draft for so long, but where were the likes of Faneca, Ward, Porter, Aaron Smith, Hampton, Polamalu and Taylor drafted? Hell, the likes of Harrison, Willie Parker and Nate Washington were not even drafted.

The Steelers have not been able to evaluate and develop talent to that degree since Tomlin took over. That's just reality.

Quoted for truth. Burress was 8th overall I think. Hell Ben wasn't even in the top ten. He was drafted 11th overall. I don't think the Steelers have drafted top 5 since Bradshaw was drafted.

 

[deljzc]

If Tomlin needs to draft in the top-5 to be good, I will gladly trade him to Oakland for their 3rd round pick.

 

[Wingman]

If Tomlin needs to draft in the top-5 to be good, I will gladly trade him to Oakland for their 3rd round pick.

There are no guarantees that he would be good if there.

 

[Xc944]

He's on pace to have more yards than ever, have his highest season comp% ever, will be close in TD's, and QB rating, but no he's not getting better.

Everyonew worships Tom Brady around here, but Ben has a higher career comp% than him and his QB rating is right there too.

Stafford puts up huge numbers every year would you say he's a top qb ? You're blind if you think Ben has been good this year because he hasn't. Don't forget to mention Brady has led a bad team to the playoffs the past few years while your boyfriend couldn't even get in with the 6 th best points allowed defense in the league. Ben could learn from tom he has enough time to watch him in he playoffs every year

 

[SteelChip]

Not trying to wander off the topic but what did Shamarko Thomas do to piss Tomlin off ? Against NO, they used Ike inside to cover Graham and Will Allen still holds the #3 safety spot. Tomlin's comment was that the rotation will stay the same going forward at safety in that Thomas and Golden will remain on special teams rotation. Is this another "stay with the veterans 'till they drop" deal ? I'm finding it puzzling that Will Allen was pulled from the scrap heap and is playing better than our prize draft pick.
http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...-safety-rotation-moving-final-quarter-season/

WTF...Is Thomas that bad ?

 

[Wingman]

Not trying to wander off the topic but what did Shamarko Thomas do to piss Tomlin off ? Against NO, they used Ike inside to cover Graham and Will Allen still holds the #3 safety spot. Tomlin's comment was that the rotation will stay the same going forward at safety in that Thomas and Golden will remain on special teams rotation. Is this another "stay with the veterans 'till they drop" deal ? I'm finding it puzzling that Will Allen was pulled from the scrap heap and is playing better than our prize draft pick.
http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...-safety-rotation-moving-final-quarter-season/

WTF...Is Thomas that bad ?

I am surprised he was not on the practice squad for someone else to steal.

 

[Drink IRON City]

This flucking DEFENSIVE system being to hard to learn, is shiot. Why have it if its not letting the better player play ????? OBVIOUSLY it's an inside thing.




Salute the nation

 

[SteelChip]

This flucking DEFENSIVE system being to hard to learn, is shiot. Why have it if its not letting the better player play ????? OBVIOUSLY it's an inside thing.
Salute the nation

That's what I'm screamin'. If it's that hard to learn, maybe it's time to simplify it a bit and let the youngin's play too. It's not like they are settin' the league on fire or anything. The last couple years it's been a pedestrian unit at best and even worse than that against teams without a QB.

 

[STEELERS R GR8]

It's very difficult to read what you wrote. Are you saying Miller is over paid? If you are then you haven't looked at TE salaries lately. He's one of the top TEs in the league even at his age. Also the team is not in cap hell. They have money to sign players every year. The problem is that they are drafting duds and over paying these duds like Allen and Gilbert. Drafting is the issue not salary cap problems.

No I am not saying Heath is over paid not sure what the hell I typed but something wasn't working, lol. I was responding to GMC where he said if anything Heath is under paid. I want to say I am a big fan of Heath but this year he is the 5th highest paid TE, about Gronk and Graham, next year they both pass him and drop him down to 12th. That is where I think his value is 5.6 mil is great, he don't have the stats of the other guys but he brings so much more. His blocking alone makes his 5 mil a year salary worth it then add how clutch of a receiver he is, I don't think he is under paid I think he is good where he is.
Now where I disagree with you is where you say we have money every year....only cause we restructure salaries pushing off money to the next year. It always catches up to us. Next year we will have 13.3 dead money to account for thanks in large part to Woodley(5.590) and Colon(4.3)! I agree our drafting has been bad but that is getting better 08&09 killed us and yes we are making stupid contracts like Dilbert and Allen which is leading to this dead money. Salary cap problems is an issue but it is being caused in part from past bad drafting and bad contracts. Every year we struggle to get under the cap and that is a fact.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

No I am not saying Heath is over paid not sure what the hell I typed but something wasn't working, lol. I was responding to GMC where he said if anything Heath is under paid. I want to say I am a big fan of Heath but this year he is the 5th highest paid TE, about Gronk and Graham, next year they both pass him and drop him down to 12th. That is where I think his value is 5.6 mil is great, he don't have the stats of the other guys but he brings so much more. His blocking alone makes his 5 mil a year salary worth it then add how clutch of a receiver he is, I don't think he is under paid I think he is good where he is.
Now where I disagree with you is where you say we have money every year....only cause we restructure salaries pushing off money to the next year. It always catches up to us. Next year we will have 13.3 dead money to account for thanks in large part to Woodley(5.590) and Colon(4.3)! I agree our drafting has been bad but that is getting better 08&09 killed us and yes we are making stupid contracts like Dilbert and Allen which is leading to this dead money. Salary cap problems is an issue but it is being caused in part from past bad drafting and bad contracts. Every year we struggle to get under the cap and that is a fact.

Bad contracts and poor salary cap management only makes it that much more difficult to draft. In some cases it may supersede drafting. Especially when you are looking to turn over a roster (like our defense), and you need the ability to acquire stop-gap players until rookies and younger players develop.

Take the Ravens, for example. Ozzie is a terrific GM, but their drafting hasn't been all that much better than ours the past 3 or 4 years. But because of salary cap, they can acquire Steve Smith Sr. until their WR's develop. We can only afford Lance Moore and DHB. When their SB winning front 7 either retired or left for FA, they were able to afford Elvis Grbac. We could only afford Cam Thomas and Arthur Moats.

Hell- if we had salary cap maybe we could have afforded to offer both Wallace and Brown and a contract. Maybe we could have showed K.Allen a contract that may have convinced him to stay in the burgh.

 

[Vader]

Bad contracts and poor salary cap management only makes it that much more difficult to draft. In some cases it may supersede drafting. Especially when you are looking to turn over a roster (like our defense), and you need the ability to acquire stop-gap players until rookies and younger players develop.

Take the Ravens, for example. Ozzie is a terrific GM, but their drafting hasn't been all that much better than ours the past 3 or 4 years. But because of salary cap, they can acquire Steve Smith Sr. until their WR's develop. We can only afford Lance Moore and DHB. When their SB winning front 7 either retired or left for FA, they were able to afford Elvis Grbac. We could only afford Cam Thomas and Arthur Moats.

Hell- if we had salary cap maybe we could have afforded to offer both Wallace and Brown and a contract. Maybe we could have showed K.Allen a contract that may have convinced him to stay in the burgh.

Allen said that they never even offered him a contract. Where does this "He wanted a lot of money" come from? Show me where he ever said he wouldn't sign with the Steelers unless it was for big money. You can't. I was in N.O. when he signed. I saw several of his interviews where he said Pittsburgh was home and he was very interested in staying. But they never even offered him anything. Now show me what you have seen. Show me the interview or article or twitter feed where he says something different.

Also they could have signed Smith but didn't even try. Here is his cap break down:

Smith is scheduled to receive his signing bonus plus a $1 million base salary in 2014 for a total of $4.5 million; he'll receive $3 million in 2015; and $3 million in 2016 plus a $1 million option bonus if he plays 60% of the snaps.

Hell they paid Mike Mitchell $25 million over 5 years. They gave him a $4.75 million signing bonus with over $5 million guaranteed. Dead money with him is a lot more than with Smith if the rats cut him.

Also I'm assuming your talking about Elvis Dumervil not Grbac. Have you even seen his contract? He counts $2.5 million against the cap this year with only $8.5 million guaranteed. Let that sink in. The Steelers are paying Worilds $9.7 million GUARANTEED for one year. The rats lost a lot of players over the past 2 years. So they had some cap space. The Steelers signed their own players like Gilbert, Allen, and Worilds. So instead of going into FA they signed their own players. No team can do both. No team has enough money to pay everybody.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Allen said that they never even offered him a contract. Where does this "He wanted a lot of money" come from? Show me where he ever said he wouldn't sign with the Steelers unless it was for big money. You can't. I was in N.O. when he signed. I saw several of his interviews where he said Pittsburgh was home and he was very interested in staying. But they never even offered him anything. Now show me what you have seen. Show me the interview or article or twitter feed where he says something different.

Also they could have signed Smith but didn't even try. Here is his cap break down:

Smith is scheduled to receive his signing bonus plus a $1 million base salary in 2014 for a total of $4.5 million; he'll receive $3 million in 2015; and $3 million in 2016 plus a $1 million option bonus if he plays 60% of the snaps.

Hell they paid Mike Mitchell $25 million over 5 years. They gave him a $4.75 million signing bonus with over $5 million guaranteed. Dead money with him is a lot more than with Smith if the rats cut him.

Also I'm assuming your talking about Elvis Dumervil not Grbac. Have you even seen his contract? He counts $2.5 million against the cap this year with only $8.5 million guaranteed. Let that sink in. The Steelers are paying Worilds $9.7 million GUARANTEED for one year. The rats lost a lot of players over the past 2 years. So they had some cap space. The Steelers signed their own players like Gilbert, Allen, and Worilds. So instead of going into FA they signed their own players. No team can do both. No team has enough money to pay everybody.

hahaha yea that was a brain fart- wrong Elvis.

Sure, Mike Mitchell's headline number is pretty big (the dead money is not so drastic), but we were never in position to offer the 36 y.o. Smith a contract and further hamstring our future salary cap on older players . When he is 38, he would count ~2mm against the salary cap- which is alot when you are still paying off Woodley's mortgage.

As for Worilds... My point is this- salary cap space (or at least a material one), allows you to take advantage when there are opportunities in the marketplace. You arent FORCED to go dumpster digging for stop gap players (i.e. Cam Thomas). You dont HAVE to draft an OLB that MUST perform day 1. You arent FORCED to tag under-performing players.

 

[Steelerfan]

For a thread with a title to end things like this one has, 5 pages seems like alot, LOL. Just a sociological observation.

 

[Vader]

hahaha yea that was a brain fart- wrong Elvis.

Sure, Mike Mitchell's headline number is pretty big (the dead money is not so drastic), but we were never in position to offer the 36 y.o. Smith a contract and further hamstring our future salary cap on older players . When he is 38, he would count ~2mm against the salary cap- which is alot when you are still paying off Woodley's mortgage.

As for Worilds... My point is this- salary cap space (or at least a material one), allows you to take advantage when there are opportunities in the marketplace. You arent FORCED to go dumpster digging for stop gap players (i.e. Cam Thomas). You dont HAVE to draft an OLB that MUST perform day 1. You arent FORCED to tag under-performing players.

You need to look at Mitchell's dead money again. If he is cut after this year you have $3.8M in 2015, $2.87M in 2016, $1.9M in 2017 and less than a million in 2018. That's a lot of dead cap room.

Also how can you argue that they couldn't sign Smith because they couldn't afford him and now say that they shouldn't have signed him because of his age and a measly $2.2 million dead money if he doesn't play next year? You're ok with $3.8M dead with Mitchell just for one year but can't handle Smith's $2.2M? Woodley's mortgage is also over with after this year. So the dead money next year has nothing to do with Woodley.

My point is this. The reason the Steelers are having issues is because they have drafted badly. Not because of cap issues. This team is filled with 1st and 2nd round draft picks. They just aren't getting it done. The Steelers always pay their guys. Pouncey, Gilbert, Allen, Timmons, and Brown all have long term contracts. Do you know that only Ben and Timmons make over $10M a year on the entire team? The Steelers are never going to pay a ton of money to FAs. It's never happened and it's never going to happen. They are going to pay their players good or bad.

In order to not have to pay Worilds you don't bring in a more expensive FA. You draft better... which has been the problem all along.

 

[FordFairLane]

Next year I would cut Gilbert, cut Allen, and let Worilds walk then re-sign Ben and try to drop his cap number and then splurge on Jason Pierre-Paul or Justin Houston and finally get a 15+ sack guy in here. Debo has had a good stint but he can't come back next year as our best pass rusher.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

You need to look at Mitchell's dead money again. If he is cut after this year you have $3.8M in 2015, $2.87M in 2016, $1.9M in 2017 and less than a million in 2018. That's a lot of dead cap room.

Also how can you argue that they couldn't sign Smith because they couldn't afford him and now say that they shouldn't have signed him because of his age and a measly $2.2 million dead money if he doesn't play next year? You're ok with $3.8M dead with Mitchell just for one year but can't handle Smith's $2.2M? Woodley's mortgage is also over with after this year. So the dead money next year has nothing to do with Woodley.

My point is this. The reason the Steelers are having issues is because they have drafted badly. Not because of cap issues. This team is filled with 1st and 2nd round draft picks. They just aren't getting it done. The Steelers always pay their guys. Pouncey, Gilbert, Allen, Timmons, and Brown all have long term contracts. Do you know that only Ben and Timmons make over $10M a year on the entire team? The Steelers are never going to pay a ton of money to FAs. It's never happened and it's never going to happen. They are going to pay their players good or bad.

In order to not have to pay Worilds you don't bring in a more expensive FA. You draft better... which has been the problem all along.

Mitchell only received a total of $5.25 MIL guaranteed (signing bonus and 1st year roster bonus) in his contract. The remaining portion of the signing bonus is the only dead money that the Steelers would incur if he was released correct? So, since he received $1.45 MIL of that cap/bonus money this year, the remaining $3.8 MIL would count against the 2015 cap if he's cut after the season. Since he has a $2 MIL roster bonus due this year, he'd actually count $4.95 against the 2015 cap if retained. Cutting him after the season represents a $1.15 MIL savings to admit you made a mistake bringing this guy on. The cap savings from releasing him increases each year of the contract.

 

[Drink IRON City]

That's what I'm screamin'. If it's that hard to learn, maybe it's time to simplify it a bit and let the youngin's play too. It's not like they are settin' the league on fire or anything. The last couple years it's been a pedestrian unit at best and even worse than that against teams without a QB.

Funny how we are wanting to simplified our scheme, in hopes of letting the younger guys play. If we had better talent, we'd need no simplifying. I wonder if the simplifying is more in line with Coach Tomlin and his talented picks???

For a thread with a title to end things like this one has, 5 pages seems like alot, LOL. Just a sociological observation.

Sociopath???? you are? (yoda)

Next year I would cut Gilbert, cut Allen, and let Worilds walk then re-sign Ben and try to drop his cap number and then splurge on Jason Pierre-Paul or Justin Houston and finally get a 15+ sack guy in here. Debo has had a good stint but he can't come back next year as our best pass rusher.

Great Idea, keep gilbert for depth (only). We need to his this year, similarly to last year, on the draft!!!!




Salute the nation

 

[Wingman]

Sounds to me like the op was not able to deliver a strong enough argument to win his point, and that maybe it is not something that can be put to rest.