Advocating for the Defense

[Coach]

Well we both know Tomlin won't get canned. I agree though. As long as Tomlin keeps his fingers in the defense it will continue to be what it is.

Don’t trust what the media who’s afraid of losing their locker room passes might say.

If the Ravens pass us for the division and the Steeler lose 4 of their last 5 games, with at least two of losses stemming from Tomlin’s coaching heck yes he can be fired!

NFL Black Monday is just around the corner...


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[Steelaztec]

I know they are not very reliable but that group definitely improved through the season, look at what they did against the top 3 teams they faced down the stretch:
- Chargers: 33 points of which 14 were given by the refs
- cheats: 10 freaking points
- saints: 31 points of which 14 were given by the refs too.

That's 15,33 points per game. TJ watt is a star in the making, heyward is the anchor of the D, haden is an island (when the refs don't screw him); Hilton, tuitt are solid contributors; Edmunds looks like is improving game by game.

There is hope for next season, we need two good FAs (CB and OLB ?) and a couple of high picks for ILB and Safety competition for Davis.

Well, I have hopes for THIS season. Yeah, I know is a really thin one. And I don't like Tomlin neither and I know they have a lot to fix on defense.

But I'll be cheering for the Brownies on sunday. And if by some christmas miracle they win, I think the Steelers will play with the fire they've been playing the last
two games. And it won't be an easy game for the Chargers, the cheats or wichever team they are up against.

I still Believe, until sunday at least.

Happy holidays to you all!

 

[Superman]

This isn't Butler's scheme. It's Tomlin's scheme... That's why nobody else in the NFL runs it... it sucks balls. The formations with the personnel make no sense. This defense has issues but Tomlin puts them in horrible positions. How can Williams, a 6'1 235 ILB cover a quick WR? It isn't his fault he can't cover him...hell Heyward can't cover him either, I wonder why? The scheme is flawed and some of the players like Dupree can't get to that next level.

The thing is that replacing Butler gains nothing. It's not his defense anyway. Unless the brass tells Tomlin to keep his hands off of it changing DCs doesn't help. The problem is that Tomlin suck at game time decisions. So why keep him? He has nothing to do with the offense, you strip the defense from him and he sucks at his only other responsibility on game day. You might as well get a new HC.

disagree that this is not Butler's scheme. I agree that Tomlin has his thumb in there, too.

This is basically LeBeau's tired 3-4 defense that was exposed towards the end of Dick's time here. bend, bend, bend, bend, bend, break. There are some wrinkles that Butler/Tomlin have put in, but they rarely are too positive. Butler is too close to the personnel to see what is/is not working. He's invested a lot of time and effort into implementing the schemes that aren't working, thus Tomlin insists on going back to the lab, if you will. We don't live in our fears on defense, but in our ignorance and unwillingness to change.

I do believe our defense has the personnel and ability to be top 3, and that was shown to the nation in the ***s game. Our LBs need to be more diverse. As Heinz said, Watt needs to blitz more and drop less into coverage. We also need to put Durpee and his athleticism next to Vince to mask Vince's flaws - thus letting Vince go back to blitzing more and dropping into coverage less. Then put Ola at OLB and let him rush the QB. As of now, we're trotting out the LB corp of Durpee, Vince, Bostic and Watt. That's not as athletic as Ola, Vince, Durpee and Watt. Put the best LBs on the field. I can assure you that group doesn't include Bostic, Matakevich or First Ballot Hall of Famer Anthony Chickillo - in any combination.

 

[slashsteel]

disagree that this is not Butler's scheme. I agree that Tomlin has his thumb in there, too.

This is basically LeBeau's tired 3-4 defense that was exposed towards the end of Dick's time here. bend, bend, bend, bend, bend, break. There are some wrinkles that Butler/Tomlin have put in, but they rarely are too positive. Butler is too close to the personnel to see what is/is not working. He's invested a lot of time and effort into implementing the schemes that aren't working, thus Tomlin insists on going back to the lab, if you will. We don't live in our fears on defense, but in our ignorance and unwillingness to change.

I do believe our defense has the personnel and ability to be top 3, and that was shown to the nation in the ***s game. Our LBs need to be more diverse. As Heinz said, Watt needs to blitz more and drop less into coverage. We also need to put Durpee and his athleticism next to Vince to mask Vince's flaws - thus letting Vince go back to blitzing more and dropping into coverage less. Then put Ola at OLB and let him rush the QB. As of now, we're trotting out the LB corp of Durpee, Vince, Bostic and Watt. That's not as athletic as Ola, Vince, Durpee and Watt. Put the best LBs on the field. I can assure you that group doesn't include Bostic, Matakevich or First Ballot Hall of Famer Anthony Chickillo - in any combination.

Vince and Bostic are almost identical monsters. Good at run defending, not so good anywhere else. Well besides Vince being able to blitz here and there. Slow in coverage times two isn't a good recipe. Hell times one for that matter when they insist on periodically dropping both in coverage. For what the Steelers want to do schematically you need two faster coverage capable linebackers. And being good at run defending isn't being great at it. Both of those two need replacing. Pick up Mosley and draft a fast productive ILBer known for his coverage skills would greatly help. But I have zero faith in the decision process of either being being accomplished.

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[Vader]

disagree that this is not Butler's scheme. I agree that Tomlin has his thumb in there, too.

This is basically LeBeau's tired 3-4 defense that was exposed towards the end of Dick's time here. bend, bend, bend, bend, bend, break. There are some wrinkles that Butler/Tomlin have put in, but they rarely are too positive. Butler is too close to the personnel to see what is/is not working. He's invested a lot of time and effort into implementing the schemes that aren't working, thus Tomlin insists on going back to the lab, if you will. We don't live in our fears on defense, but in our ignorance and unwillingness to change.

I do believe our defense has the personnel and ability to be top 3, and that was shown to the nation in the ***s game. Our LBs need to be more diverse. As Heinz said, Watt needs to blitz more and drop less into coverage. We also need to put Durpee and his athleticism next to Vince to mask Vince's flaws - thus letting Vince go back to blitzing more and dropping into coverage less. Then put Ola at OLB and let him rush the QB. As of now, we're trotting out the LB corp of Durpee, Vince, Bostic and Watt. That's not as athletic as Ola, Vince, Durpee and Watt. Put the best LBs on the field. I can assure you that group doesn't include Bostic, Matakevich or First Ballot Hall of Famer Anthony Chickillo - in any combination.

Tomlin took over the play calling last year. This isn't a true 3-4 defense. There is no 3-4 NG. A 3-4 defense doesn't have 2 DL for a goal line set. This is not anything close to a DL defense. All defenses have elements of other defenses but this isn't DL's defense. Tomlin started drafting defensive players that don't fit the 3-4. Butler is a 3-4 guy, Tomlin isn't. So which of those two do you think is running this hybrid defense? It sure as hell isn't the 3-4 DL disciple. It's probably the guy that has experience with a Tampa 2 defense.

Also one game doesn't make a defense. Every team has a good defensive game every year. Also if they are a top 3 defense within Butler's tired old 3-4 with your tweeks then is the 3-4 really the problem? That makes no sense to me. Either the scheme is out dating and worn, the players don't fit the system, or the 3-4 is a good system being ****** with by the HC to make him look like he knows how to run a defense.

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Something lebeau had early in his tenure as defensive coordinator,. Shut down corner in like Taylor, all pro safety in polamalu, all pro not in Hampton and all pro mlb, in potsie, oh btw he also had a badass at ROLB dpoy Harrison. This team has none of those things.

 

[FSF]

Haden is the key to how good the Defense can be... both last and this year.

2 phantom PIs called on him actually shows that he’s a stopper.

They need to get a compliment to him in draft more than anything else on team.


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[FSF]

Something lebeau had early in his tenure as defensive coordinator,. Shut down corner in like Taylor, all pro safety in polamalu, all pro not in Hampton and all pro mlb, in potsie, oh btw he also had a badass at ROLB dpoy Harrison. This team has none of those things.

He also had a league with rules that let his defense succeed.




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[Vader]

He also had a league with rules that let his defense succeed.

And what rules would those be?

 

[Spike]

stats are for losers


They are not worth the spit to even talk about, this defense stinks, can't stop the run OR pass when it matters in the 4th quarter

 

[SteelerFan448]

Something lebeau had early in his tenure as defensive coordinator,. Shut down corner in like Taylor, all pro safety in polamalu, all pro not in Hampton and all pro mlb, in potsie, oh btw he also had a badass at ROLB dpoy Harrison. This team has none of those things.

Taylor was a fourth-round pick who the Steelers developed. They traded up for Polamalu knowing he'd be a playmaker for their defense. They recognized they needed a true nose tackle and went out and drafted Hampton. Farrior was a former first-round selection who was a good fit for their system. Harrison was undrafted. These guys weren't handed to the Steelers on a platter, they either went out and acquired the talent necessary to win or developed them. That's something this current regime has not done on defense.

 

[Superman]

Tomlin took over the play calling last year. This isn't a true 3-4 defense. There is no 3-4 NG. A 3-4 defense doesn't have 2 DL for a goal line set. This is not anything close to a DL defense. All defenses have elements of other defenses but this isn't DL's defense. Tomlin started drafting defensive players that don't fit the 3-4. Butler is a 3-4 guy, Tomlin isn't. So which of those two do you think is running this hybrid defense? It sure as hell isn't the 3-4 DL disciple. It's probably the guy that has experience with a Tampa 2 defense.

Also one game doesn't make a defense. Every team has a good defensive game every year. Also if they are a top 3 defense within Butler's tired old 3-4 with your tweeks then is the 3-4 really the problem? That makes no sense to me. Either the scheme is out dating and worn, the players don't fit the system, or the 3-4 is a good system being ****** with by the HC to make him look like he knows how to run a defense.

If Tomlin, as you state, has "taken over the defense", then tell the class why Butler is still here. It can't be because he provides some intrinsic defensive genius, since, as you state, Tomlin has taken over the defense. I assume that means all aspects of the defense, since you're plainly stating that Tomlin is doing the play calling and drafting the players for this hybrid defense. So Tomlin is doing all the defensive scheming, coaching, personnel calls, etc and Butler is mere eye-candy as a "disciple" of the 3-4 defense so yinzers have a clutch throwback to cling to? I mean, no offense, but that's absolutely cross-eyed retarded. You're saying that the Pittsburgh Steelers are employing Butler for absolutely no reason than to be a fall-guy for Tomlin. A million dollar pinata. I just find that absolutely ludicrous to believe, or even to entertain such a far-flung idea.

As for my tweeks to the defense, I, nor anyone else, would know if it would work. But it would absolutely put the most athletic LBs on the field. Which is what we should want. Don't come back with "Durpee couldn't stand up to an OG or C", since he's not blocked 100% of every game by the LT exclusively. Moving Bud inside would give us some athleticism there, and give us the absolute ability to blitz from all four LB spots. Which, as we saw under LeBeau is why the 3-4 was so successful - the QB wouldn't always know who was blitzing and who was dropping back.

Additionally, I don't see any suggestions from you other than "Fire _____". Firing someone without having a viable candidate to replace that person with is a sure sign of future failure.

I will agree that one game doesn't make a defense. Nor does it prove that a defensive scheme is an exact blueprint of how to play going forward. However, we did put more pressure on Brady than I ever recall. We also were able to pretty much hold the Pats in check. Now, that can be attributed to Brady being older (though his stats are still great) and Gronk not being the Gronk of years past. But, Brady still had Josh Gordon, Julian Edelman, Chris Hogan and James White. He's done more with less talent than that.

I will also agree that the 3-4 as it is being ***-****** now is not working. Not in any means, even though statistically it's "ok".

 

[FSF]

And what rules would those be?

The ability to hit receivers in the slot -- the 2008 team wasn't a great coverage defense but they were #1 pass D in league because they knocked the stuffing out of you. Remember Wes Welker being sent to the sideline in NE that year?

When Brady can throw a 3 yard pass, that very strength of 2 major outside rushers at OLB was greatly diminished.

Heck the change of the rules by Roger Goodell mid-season 2010 cost them that year too. Every year since it became less physical, and that is what the LeBeau Blitzburgh 3-4 was all about.

The change toward speed was hurt a lot with Shazier injury - this team needs Defensive Backs with closing speed and play-making abilities and they need them fast, because that is what the game is about now. To lead the league in sacks and be among league low in forcing turnovers is astounding.

 

[Spike]

Shut down corner in like Taylor, all pro safety in polamalu, all pro nt in Hampton and all pro mlb, in potsie, oh btw he also had a badass at ROLB dpoy Harrison.

This team has none of those things.

Aint it the truth, people seem to be completely blind as to just how empty of talent we are on defense

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

It should be noted that Heyward's official position designation was changed this year to DT. The steelers are a 3-4 in name only. Dupree is pretty much playing DE. You have Tuitt at RDE Hargrave at NT, Heyward at DT, and Dupree basically playing LDE outside Heyward .

When they go nickel or dime, they sit Hargrave and you have Heyward and TUitt at DT and Watt and Dupree as DE,. It's still a 4 man front.

I would not have a problem with sitting Hargrave if Dupree was a stud but I think Hargrave is now the 2nd best pass rusher on the team and sitting him is stupid.

Lebeau liked cover 3 and his coverage schemes were very complex. Nobody caught onto Lebeau, what happened was the secondary talent went to ****.

People forget, Tomlin was a very inexperienced coach when the steelers hired him. He played WR in college. He then found work as a DB coach, mainly under Tampa 2 style defenses. He was then a DC for just 1 season. He simply doesn't know many schemes other than the Tampa 2.

The reason Tampa had so much success was they had great players. You had Sapp pressuring inside and Simeon Rice pressuring outside. They could get pressure with 4. They also had Derrick Brooks at LB who was a tremendous cover guy. That is absolutely key to the Tampa 2 as we have seen with our LBs getting toasted. A guy like Brooks can make those plays.

The last pieces were smart DBs that had a feel for zone coverage. That was Ronde Barber at CB and John Lynch at S. Neither was a special athlete but they were always in the right place.

The Tampa 2 is pretty much the worst scheme fit possible for the current steelers talent. They struggle to pressure without a blitz. Their LBs are awful in coverage, their most talented CBs are better suited to man than zone and they have young, inexperienced safeties

 

[Steelr4evr]

Something lebeau had early in his tenure as defensive coordinator,. Shut down corner in like Taylor, all pro safety in polamalu, all pro not in Hampton and all pro mlb, in potsie, oh btw he also had a badass at ROLB dpoy Harrison. This team has none of those things.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner! The only guys worth a darn are Haden,Watt(as a pass rusher) and Edmunds who is a rookie and I have zero idea about him. I do know I have no faith the staff can develop him.

 

[Coryea]

Taylor was a fourth-round pick who the Steelers developed. They traded up for Polamalu knowing he'd be a playmaker for their defense. They recognized they needed a true nose tackle and went out and drafted Hampton. Farrior was a former first-round selection who was a good fit for their system. Harrison was undrafted. These guys weren't handed to the Steelers on a platter, they either went out and acquired the talent necessary to win or developed them. That's something this current regime has not done on defense.

And actually early in Lebeaus tenure it was Porter at OLB, a 3rd round pick. Let's not forget Aaron Smith another later pick, Kimo a free agent, Keisel a 6th rounder. Cowher was a DC before being a head coach like Tomlin, but he knew how to build a defense.

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[Coryea]

Tomlin himself said after NE game, in regards to the Hogan TD and if it was Burns fault or not.
Tomlin said "I was late getting the signal in". Sure sounds to me like he's calling the defense.

I'll type it again so the naysayers can read it.

Tomlin said, "I was late getting the signal in"

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[Superman]

Tomlin himself said after NE game, in regards to the Hogan TD and if it was Burns fault or not.
Tomlin said "I was late getting the signal in". Sure sounds to me like he's calling the defense.

I'll type it again so the naysayers can read it.

Tomlin said, "I was late getting the signal in"

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devil's advocate:
he took the blame.

 

[Coach]

Something lebeau had early in his tenure as defensive coordinator,. Shut down corner in like Taylor, all pro safety in polamalu, all pro not in Hampton and all pro mlb, in potsie, oh btw he also had a badass at ROLB dpoy Harrison. This team has none of those things.

Well The Steelers drafted Burns, Hargrave ( who's been decent this year ) and Davis. Not exactly Taylor, Hampton and Polamalu.

The 2016 Steelers draft was poor. If you want to " look at me " I can post who I would have taken the day of the draft Short version, mine was better Happy holidays B&G.

 

[Coach]

devil's advocate:
he took the blame.

Late? Some coaches just don't have it above the neck.

 

[Vader]

If Tomlin, as you state, has "taken over the defense", then tell the class why Butler is still here. It can't be because he provides some intrinsic defensive genius, since, as you state, Tomlin has taken over the defense. I assume that means all aspects of the defense, since you're plainly stating that Tomlin is doing the play calling and drafting the players for this hybrid defense. So Tomlin is doing all the defensive scheming, coaching, personnel calls, etc and Butler is mere eye-candy as a "disciple" of the 3-4 defense so yinzers have a clutch throwback to cling to? I mean, no offense, but that's absolutely cross-eyed retarded. You're saying that the Pittsburgh Steelers are employing Butler for absolutely no reason than to be a fall-guy for Tomlin. A million dollar pinata. I just find that absolutely ludicrous to believe, or even to entertain such a far-flung idea.

As for my tweeks to the defense, I, nor anyone else, would know if it would work. But it would absolutely put the most athletic LBs on the field. Which is what we should want. Don't come back with "Durpee couldn't stand up to an OG or C", since he's not blocked 100% of every game by the LT exclusively. Moving Bud inside would give us some athleticism there, and give us the absolute ability to blitz from all four LB spots. Which, as we saw under LeBeau is why the 3-4 was so successful - the QB wouldn't always know who was blitzing and who was dropping back.

Additionally, I don't see any suggestions from you other than "Fire _____". Firing someone without having a viable candidate to replace that person with is a sure sign of future failure.

I will agree that one game doesn't make a defense. Nor does it prove that a defensive scheme is an exact blueprint of how to play going forward. However, we did put more pressure on Brady than I ever recall. We also were able to pretty much hold the Pats in check. Now, that can be attributed to Brady being older (though his stats are still great) and Gronk not being the Gronk of years past. But, Brady still had Josh Gordon, Julian Edelman, Chris Hogan and James White. He's done more with less talent than that.

I will also agree that the 3-4 as it is being ***-****** now is not working. Not in any means, even though statistically it's "ok".

It isn't my job to know what Butler does. Fact is I don't know and honestly you don't know either. I can just go by what I read and see. Here is an article about it from Jan. https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2...-took-over-defensive-playcalling-last-season/

Now I'm sure you have more insights to how the team is run than the reporters assigned to them. You need to call Ed Bouchette. Ask him why he did it and tell him how retarded he is for believing what Tomlin said and what he observed.

Also your tweeks weren't the issue I was addressing. I don't understand how you think the 3-4 is outdated but with YOUR tweeks they are a top 3 defense. Can you not see the issue with the convoluted statement? So you are the genius that figured out how to take an outdated archaic defense and make it one of the best in the league. I think you've missed you calling.

You may not see my suggestions but they are there. I don't need a replacement for Tomlin. Just like when a light bulb blows I don't ask myself "Which bulb am I going to replace it with". The NFL and colleges are flooded with all types of coaches. Ask the Eagles who they could possibly get to replace Chip Kelly. It's an ignorant argument. You never heard of Tomlin before he came to interview. And you didn't know **** about him then. Even if I had 10 viable candidates the Steelers don't care what I think. So the point is moot. Just like they don't care when I say Tomlin should go.

 

[Spike]

We need to switch to 4-3.

I keep hearing this but for that to work u need dominant pass rushers up front, we have even LESS talent in the DL to rush the passer than the 3/4. Its not about scheme, its about talent.

NONE of our DL can take over a game or put any fear in QB or even demand a double team, our LBs used to do that, but that went away with Harrison. OK, TJ is good, but he's only one side, the only bright spot

You'd have to start from scratch like the Jags did to build a DL, it only took them 10 years of trying and it still a work in progress, pass rushers are expensive, 3/4 tweeners are a dime a dozen....guess which way we go

 

[SteelerFan448]

Tomlin himself said after NE game, in regards to the Hogan TD and if it was Burns fault or not.
Tomlin said "I was late getting the signal in". Sure sounds to me like he's calling the defense.

I'll type it again so the naysayers can read it.

Tomlin said, "I was late getting the signal in"

This coaching staff has issues with getting the plays in. Look at how many times--especially early in the season--the linebackers were still communicating the call as the offense is snapping it. The same thing happens with the offense when we see Ben take so many time outs early in a half.

 

[Coryea]

This coaching staff has issues with getting the plays in. Look at how many times--especially early in the season--the linebackers were still communicating the call as the offense is snapping it. The same thing happens with the offense when we see Ben take so many time outs early in a half.

Remember first game last year we had 10 on the field vs NE and no one covering Gronk.
And then the NE game this year I believe, NE gets the ball just short of the first down, making it 3rd and short, instead of rushing our big personnel on right away, we wait and then try to switch late and Brady nails us with to many on the field, automatic first down. It was that game or the Chargers

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