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The zone defense thread.

I wasn't actually saying being #1 in man coverage is good, just surprising from a Lebeau defense with 5th and 6th round talents (that normally means speed/stick abilities are lacking).

I would prefer we are not in the top-5 of any of these "most used" categories. That shows the true ability of a coach, staff and players to implement game plans defensively that are best suited to win any given week. Any team (and that includes Tennessee) that relies on one style of play so prevalently probably has issues unless your talent is so dominant that you can say "we don't change, try to beat us". But we obviously don't have that.

What frustrates me is the Tampa-2, as stated clearly in the original PFF article, is the fact it's a coverage that is regressing in usage around the league. That is for a very good reason. Even these stupid spread QB's from college can read it. And most NFL quarterbacks have seen it and know what to do against it. In light of this fact, to defend our coach/scheme/talent to play MORE of it seems asinine to me.

But go ahead and defend them. That's your right. Just as it's mine to be critical.

I'm not defending the coaches, per se, just that they, obviously, had a purpose for using it and did so, while maintaining what seems to be pretty good defensive stats using such an old system that everyone can read, but, apparently, not score on constantly (again, cheating piece of **** team notwithstanding). The coaches took the talent they had and used it to get to the AFCC with 2 rookie DB's.
 
When a Penn State Lacrosse player looks like Jerry Rice, you are either

A. In the wrong defense
B. Executing horribly
C. All of the above




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or playing a cheating piece of **** team?

That team that scored no less than 34 points in EVERY playoff game, including the SB? While Brady had a field day, the TEAM only scored 2 more points than they did against the other PO teams the *'s played. Against the Texans, Brady had a ****** 68 Rating. However, that la crosse player caught 4 passes on 4 targets for 95 yards (23.8 ypc). DB's for the Texans Bouye and Joseph. Joseph highly paid CB and, Bouye just got overpaid. Top 4 CB's making a total of $20m and the La Crosse player got 23.8 ypc, Sure he burned us, too, but the point is, that TEAM burned up everyone in the playoffs.

the nay sayers here were telling us how ****** we were when the MIA team beat us that that RB ran all over us. That MIA team was 1 and ******* 4. They only lost 2 more games the rest of the season. We got to the PO's and that same MIA team was going to roll all over us again. Well, I mean, KC will after that, this D won't be able to control a smart QB like Smith (ignore the 43-14 drubbing we gave them earlier in the year).....

Steelers lost 5 games last year. Every game lost, except 1, and including the PO's, the Offense scored 17 points or less. The D could have been better last year, but, considering, they weren't shabby. Pretending like the game against the cheating pieces of **** is what defines the D is not correct.
 
or playing a cheating piece of **** team?

That team that scored no less than 34 points in EVERY playoff game, including the SB? While Brady had a field day, the TEAM only scored 2 more points than they did against the other PO teams the *'s played. Against the Texans, Brady had a ****** 68 Rating. However, that la crosse player caught 4 passes on 4 targets for 95 yards (23.8 ypc). DB's for the Texans Bouye and Joseph. Joseph highly paid CB and, Bouye just got overpaid. Top 4 CB's making a total of $20m and the La Crosse player got 23.8 ypc, Sure he burned us, too, but the point is, that TEAM burned up everyone in the playoffs.

the nay sayers here were telling us how ****** we were when the MIA team beat us that that RB ran all over us. That MIA team was 1 and ******* 4. They only lost 2 more games the rest of the season. We got to the PO's and that same MIA team was going to roll all over us again. Well, I mean, KC will after that, this D won't be able to control a smart QB like Smith (ignore the 43-14 drubbing we gave them earlier in the year).....

Steelers lost 5 games last year. Every game lost, except 1, and including the PO's, the Offense scored 17 points or less. The D could have been better last year, but, considering, they weren't shabby. Pretending like the game against the cheating pieces of **** is what defines the D is not correct.

I understand what you are saying, however, there is more than last years afcc in our history v Brady. Friggin guy kills us, doesn't matter who is catching, he has us figured out. We have failed to find something that we can execute to beat him. Sure cheating may have been involved at some point or points along the way, but we still play the role of ***** when our teams line up.

I want to see that change. I'm not going to pretend I have the answers, but there are people on the coaching payroll, and players who annually make more than I will in a career, who need to come up with something more competitive against that team.

We know now, that barring injury or tragedy, if we want to go to the game in February, we will need to beat that team most likely TWICE this year. Once to get home field and then when it counts. There aren't many teams that they lose to once, it's a daunting task to beat them twice.






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or playing a cheating piece of **** team?

That team that scored no less than 34 points in EVERY playoff game, including the SB? While Brady had a field day, the TEAM only scored 2 more points than they did against the other PO teams the *'s played. Against the Texans, Brady had a ****** 68 Rating. However, that la crosse player caught 4 passes on 4 targets for 95 yards (23.8 ypc). DB's for the Texans Bouye and Joseph. Joseph highly paid CB and, Bouye just got overpaid. Top 4 CB's making a total of $20m and the La Crosse player got 23.8 ypc, Sure he burned us, too, but the point is, that TEAM burned up everyone in the playoffs.

the nay sayers here were telling us how ****** we were when the MIA team beat us that that RB ran all over us. That MIA team was 1 and ******* 4. They only lost 2 more games the rest of the season. We got to the PO's and that same MIA team was going to roll all over us again. Well, I mean, KC will after that, this D won't be able to control a smart QB like Smith (ignore the 43-14 drubbing we gave them earlier in the year).....

Steelers lost 5 games last year. Every game lost, except 1, and including the PO's, the Offense scored 17 points or less. The D could have been better last year, but, considering, they weren't shabby. Pretending like the game against the cheating pieces of **** is what defines the D is not correct.

I watched that game again last night and regardless of the score or stats...we sucked. We couldn't cover, we couldn't tackle and if your name was Hamilton, you dropped more passes than you caught. For the fourth or fifth time, I couldn't watch the whole game and I finally put it behind me and deleted it.

I eagerly anticipate a new year, a rejuvenated defense and a deeper and healthier offense loaded for bear...and cheaters !
 
I understand what you are saying, however, there is more than last years afcc in our history v Brady. Friggin guy kills us, doesn't matter who is catching, he has us figured out. We have failed to find something that we can execute to beat him. Sure cheating may have been involved at some point or points along the way, but we still play the role of ***** when our teams line up.

I want to see that change. I'm not going to pretend I have the answers, but there are people on the coaching payroll, and players who annually make more than I will in a career, who need to come up with something more competitive against that team.

We know now, that barring injury or tragedy, if we want to go to the game in February, we will need to beat that team most likely TWICE this year. Once to get home field and then when it counts. There aren't many teams that they lose to once, it's a daunting task to beat them twice.






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I guess the losses to the cheating piece of **** *'s don't bother me like they do everyone else. The only one that REALLY still bothers me is the AFCCG that would have put us in the SB in New Orleans.

If the *'s weren't doing the same thing to every other team, it would bother me a great deal more. I can't separate the cheating from their "success" or have any belief that the cheating has stopped.
 
THE IMPORTANCE: For the Steelers to take that next step on defense, they need to continue to grow. A year ago, they put together an impressive second half, allowing more than 250 yards passing in only two of their final 13 games.

If they can sprinkle in some more man coverage with their zone and Cover 3, and even the Cover 2 they implemented more often a couple years ago, it will offer more options to match up against a specific team. Brady was able to pick apart a predictable Steelers’ defense in both meetings last year. That can’t happen this year if they want to make it back to the Super Bowl.

THE BREAKDOWN: The Steelers did play the most Cover 2 of any team in the NFL a year ago, but the rest of the defenses called — if not all of them — had plenty of man concepts attached. The issue a year ago was that they just didn’t play man coverage very well.

The way the defense is structured, there are a lot of man concepts. But make no mistake: Butler leaned toward spot drops and zones a lot more than man, and there’s a reason for it.

“We are going to try to build to do what our guys do best,” Butler said earlier this summer. “Sometimes you can’t tell until you get to training camp. Maybe you aren’t as good as you think you should be. Maybe we should do this. It is going to be a learning experience for me to figure out what my guys do best.”

Burns prefers playing man coverage and continued to work on it during the spring by matching up against Antonio Brown during practices. Cockrell doesn’t have Burns’ ability, but he was matched against the other team’s top receiver plenty a year ago, and he did OK. With the addition of Sutton and Sensabaugh and finally getting a healthy Golson back, the Steelers have the pieces to make more of a push toward man coverage.

OK, well, that depends on who’s talking.

Mike Tomlin, Butler and the majority of the players have said that, but Gay scoffed at the concept during the spring when I asked about the transition toward more man coverages.

“Ha!” Gay said. “All the fans and media want to hear is the word ‘man,’ but if you look at our playbook, you play man every time, other than maybe Cover 2. You want to give the fans what they want by using the words man-to-man, but if they understand defense, it’s bigger than that.”

The Steelers played plenty of matchup zone last year, but that type of defense requires experience. Whether coverage is passed over to another defender is predicated on reading the proper route run by the receiver, which could be confusing to inexperienced players. It’s much safer with less chance for a breakdown to allow a corner to just cover a receiver all over the field, letting the natural ability of the defender take over.

“There’s always some opening in a zone defense,” Burns said. “It’s someone who missed a drop, or it’s always some group in a zone defense. To be able to play man, to get a guy right in someone’s chest with the pressure, it affects the quarterback a little bit.”

THE DIFFERENCE-MAKER: While more man is the plan, Butler freely admitted he doesn’t know if it will ultimately work. If the players are able to handle man coverage in camp, they will play it during the season.


https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/...fense-needs-man-build-off-last-years-success/
 
I think you guys are hanging your hats WAY too much on the so-called improvement last season.

Yes, there was a clear divide in pass defense (and defense in total) that took place between Week 10 (Dallas) and Week 11 (CLE). Be aware this is 9 games vs. 7 games but by all measure things got better. Passing yards (not net) went from 2581 to 1525. Quarterback rating against went from about 98.0 to 77.0. Turnovers generated went from 5 to 11. In my DQR formula we went from about 100.0 against to a 60.0 against.

But when you dig into the numbers, the quality of our opponents was lacking which you HAVE to take into account when trying to read statistical changes and whether they can be used to predict the future.

Based on my DQR formula over the last 7 weeks we faced the 30th ranked (twice), 22nd ranked, 20th ranked, 17th ranked and 13th ranked passing offenses. And the last game was against a 1-game backup (Tolzien for the Colts). You might average that out to a 23rd ranked pass offense against us week-in, week-out.

I have a hard time praising or forecasting that the accomplishments against these poor teams is somehow a sign of things to come.

A reasonable expectation is still a mid-caliber, average pass defense this upcoming season. Particularly vulnerable when we face top-10 passing offenses (not in yards but in efficiency and rating). For the most part our schedule avoids them again, with 5 vs. the top-10, 4 vs. the bottom 10 and 7 vs. the middle of the pack (and a total overall average of 16th out of 31).

This is especially true if the team schemes something new (which they should but still might face mental lapses). There is time in the first 5 games of the season (average pass offense of these 5 teams is 22nd) to hopefully try new things, work out the kinks and still win.

The middle of the season is much harder (the 3 games before/after the bye week) with the average pass offence around 10th. The last five are reasonable if not for the Patriots (2nd overall) being our 3rd from last contest. Again these rating are NOT total yards (which is stupid) but is based on my DQR and should be somewhat similar to your standard (although inaccurate) old quarterback rating system.

I'm not saying the schedule isn't doable even with the level of our pass defense. It is. But I'm unsure I want to jump to any statistical conclusions of fundamental improvements to our group based on the last 7 games of last season. We have a lot further to go and much to improve on both schematically and execution if we want to make a run at the Super Bowl, because then we really are likley talking about top-10 pass offenses (New England, Atlanta, Dallas, Oakland and maybe Seattle) to get through.
 
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I think you guys are hanging your hats WAY too much on the so-called improvement last season.

Yes, there was a clear divide in pass defense (and defense in total) that took place between Week 10 (Dallas) and Week 11 (CLE). Be aware this is 9 games vs. 7 games but by all measure things got better. Passing yards (not net) went from 2581 to 1525. Quarterback rating against went from about 98.0 to 77.0. Turnovers generated went from 5 to 11. In my DQR formula we went from about 100.0 against to a 60.0 against.

But when you dig into the numbers, the quality of our opponents was lacking which you HAVE to take into account when trying to read statistical changes and whether they can be used to predict the future.

Based on my DQR formula over the last 7 weeks we faced the 30th ranked (twice), 22nd ranked, 20th ranked, 17th ranked and 13th ranked passing offenses. And the last game was against a 1-game backup (Tolzien for the Colts). You might average that out to a 23rd ranked pass offense against us week-in, week-out.

I have a hard time praising or forecasting that the accomplishments against these poor teams is somehow a sign of things to come.

A reasonable expectation is still a mid-caliber, average pass defense this upcoming season. Particularly vulnerable when we face top-10 passing offenses (not in yards but in efficiency and rating). For the most part our schedule avoids them again, with 5 vs. the top-10, 4 vs. the bottom 10 and 7 vs. the middle of the pack (and a total overall average of 16th out of 31).

This is especially true if the team schemes something new (which they should but still might face mental lapses). There is time in the first 5 games of the season (average pass offense of these 5 teams is 22nd) to hopefully try new things, work out the kinks and still win.

The middle of the season is much harder (the 3 games before/after the bye week) with the average pass offence around 10th. The last five are reasonable if not for the Patriots (2nd overall) being our 3rd from last contest. Again these rating are NOT total yards (which is stupid) but is based on my DQR and should be somewhat similar to your standard (although inaccurate) old quarterback rating system.

I'm not saying the schedule isn't doable even with the level of our pass defense. It is. But I'm unsure I want to jump to any statistical conclusions of fundamental improvements to our group based on the last 7 games of last season. We have a lot further to go and much to improve on both schematically and execution if we want to make a run at the Super Bowl, because then we really are likley talking about top-10 pass offenses (New England, Atlanta, Dallas, Oakland and maybe Seattle) to get through.

I think the team itself sees this. Which is why the influx of secondary players as well as the number 1 pick being a pass rush capable player.

But as you said there should be bumps in the road as they fine tune. Hopefully that is one of the primary focuses in training camp-preseason.
 
Other teams played against bad teams, too, which is why I look at rankings as much as the actual stats themselves or look at what we did versus what all of those "good" coaches did.

Are you going to use the "played bad teams" to grade the Offense as well? Last 8 games of the season, we didn't score less than 24 points. Get into the playoffs and score 30, 18 and 17. The D does the opposite in the PO's and allows 12, 16 and 36.

The only position on the D that you wouldn't expect to be improved is ILB. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

We play 5 teams next year that made it to the playoffs last year.

6 games will be against teams we played 6 times last year and went 5-1. Another game against a playoff team that we beat twice last year (KC)
 
We can break this down all day, but when the other teams best wr is being chased by Timmons, something is ******* wrong, when their WR's are catching passes with no one within 5 yards of them something is ******* wrong. Yeah it's not just as simple as zone or man, but you are playing a cheat *** team with Brady, playing man only 3 out of 60 plays isn't going to work. At least with man the windows should be tighter to throw into, unless our ILB is covering their quick wr.

As for Tenn, they did play more explosive offenses than we did, colts twice, lions, green bay, Oakland, Chargers so I'd expect their passing defensive stats to not be all that good.

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Other teams played against bad teams, too, which is why I look at rankings as much as the actual stats themselves or look at what we did versus what all of those "good" coaches did.

Are you going to use the "played bad teams" to grade the Offense as well? Last 8 games of the season, we didn't score less than 24 points. Get into the playoffs and score 30, 18 and 17. The D does the opposite in the PO's and allows 12, 16 and 36.

The only position on the D that you wouldn't expect to be improved is ILB. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

We play 5 teams next year that made it to the playoffs last year.

6 games will be against teams we played 6 times last year and went 5-1. Another game against a playoff team that we beat twice last year (KC)

Well ****....we should be bringing home our 7th SB trophy next season then ....here I was worried about a silly soft cushion our coaches have us playing on almost EVERY third down until we reach the RZ.....or so it seems. I am finished worry about it now though.
 
I agree we need a better pass rush, but if you're in zone 57 plays out of 60, it's pretty simple for their WR's to run quick short routes so the ball is gone before the pass rush gets close, man coverage can cause the qb to hold the ball a bit longer

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I agree we need a better pass rush, but if you're in zone 57 plays out of 60, it's pretty simple for their WR's to run quick short routes so the ball is gone before the pass rush gets close, man coverage can cause the qb to hold the ball a bit longer

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Or they can get beat and a simple slant just turned into an 80 yard TD.
 
Guys, we really weren't a superbowl team last year. We had 3 rookies starting on defense and 3 new vet starters by the end of the year. That's 6 of our 11 guys that weren't starters for us the previous season. Over half of the defense. Or O is superbowl ready, and if we got lucky, we could have earned a trophy, but our D was a year away at best starting last season.

I am happy we improved all season long. The rookies showed that not only could they play, but they could make big plays as well. Everyone is returning, minus Timmons, so I'm thinking we're going to be much improved this season out of the gate. Personally, I consider putting Watt on the field in the middle when he isn't rotating with Harrison.

Thing is, this year, is the year I fully expect us to contend for a championship. And I think we have the talent on both sides of the ball to do it. Just put it together, and quit with the ******* NE apologies. You want to be the best? You got to beat the best, and right now, they are the best.
 
And we know for a fact the instances they tried man they were torched also for big plays
Yeah when they tried covering their WR's with a LB and a safety. The only recent time we've beaten them was 2012 and we played alot of press man coverage

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Yeah when they tried covering their WR's with a LB and a safety. The only recent time we've beaten them was 2012 and we played alot of press man coverage

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According to Gerry Dulac of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, however, the season that the Steelers shied away from man coverage against the Patriots is because it didn’t work. He Tweeted last night that the defense “went to man coverage 3 times and got burned each time by Brady. Stopped doing it after that”, according to a team source.

He added that the “biggest culprit in man coverage was nickel back William Gay, who struggled [with Julian Edelman]”. So if you were looking for an answer as to why the Steelers didn’t do what they obviously needed to do in order to win the game, the answer is that they tried to do that and it failed spectacularly each time that they tried.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...ers-stopped-using-man-coverage-ne-didnt-work/
 
Guys, we really weren't a superbowl team last year. We had 3 rookies starting on defense and 3 new vet starters by the end of the year. That's 6 of our 11 guys that weren't starters for us the previous season. Over half of the defense. Or O is superbowl ready, and if we got lucky, we could have earned a trophy, but our D was a year away at best starting last season.

I am happy we improved all season long. The rookies showed that not only could they play, but they could make big plays as well. Everyone is returning, minus Timmons, so I'm thinking we're going to be much improved this season out of the gate. Personally, I consider putting Watt on the field in the middle when he isn't rotating with Harrison.

Thing is, this year, is the year I fully expect us to contend for a championship. And I think we have the talent on both sides of the ball to do it. Just put it together, and quit with the ******* NE apologies. You want to be the best? You got to beat the best, and right now, they are the best.

I think for many of us there have been too many seasons under Tombert with Roethlisberger as our QB that "we really weren't a Superbowl team". That's the problem.

The weakness always seem pretty self-evident. We are just too often 1-2 seasons behind in fixing it.

I'm not down on the team much. Based on the schedule 11-5 is the AVERAGE this team should be this year.

But regular season record which can fluctuate based on all sorts of things is never the best way to always judge the talent level/capabilities of our team to make a deep playoff run. Too often I've criticized Tombert for excepting a 10-win or 12-win season as some sort of proof little to no improvement needed to be made. And problems fans often saw (like the offensive line back in the late 2000's) did end up costing us seasons while the team delayed in addressing it. Granted they fixed it eventually but it always seems a step late and by that time another problem has reared it's head.

If we want another title, "Good" isn't going to cut it. We have to be great.

We all know we weren't a lowB repuS team last year even though they won 11 games. Too many years under the Tombert era I haven't been convinced they realize that simple fact.

Maybe this year will be different but playing conservative, hiding our young players from making and learning from mistakes, leaning toward veterans will low ceilings isn't going to get you to the promise land come December/January.

The clock is really ticking now.
 
When Ben Rothlisberger plays like the best QB in football in a playoff game and we still lose let me know.
 
That's true, but you have to try a little more, and 4 LBs always on the field vs that team is a killer, you can't do that.

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