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steelers select Javon Hargrave DT south Carolina st

Sure hope they made the right move passing on Billings.
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
Steelers wanted a versatile guy who could play NT, but also be athletic enough to rush the passer and play DE to sub for Heyward and Tuitt. Hargrave can stand up to double teams and has the quickness to rush the passer.

At over 300 lbs, he ran 4.91 in the 40.

The combine measured Edge Speed for pass rushers, which is just how fast you can turn the corner. They measure from the left and the right sides. Most are faster on one side, whichever they are used to lining up at.

Here some edge speed times
Joey Bosa ...........left 2.56 right 2.13
DeForest Buckner left 1.83 right 1.77
Emanuel Ogbah ...left 2.71 right 1.99
Shaq Lawson ...... left 2.15 right 2.12
Noah Spence....... left 1.89 right 1.97

Javon Hargrave..... left 1.80 right 2.04

That's pretty damn impressive for a guy over 300 Lbs
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Hold up!!!!!!!!!!

So, someone in the Steelers FO and Coaching staff made a great pick??? Unpossible...
Steel Ballin said:
Sure hope they made the right move passing on Billings.
Click to expand...
See Tape's analysis - it should ease your worries.





























Well, maybe...
 
See I just don't see Hargrave as a NT or 0 technique guy. His skill set is to penetrate, disrupt, and get the QB. I don't have him sit back an play the 0 technique and waste what he does best. Honestly, that is where we went wrong with Ziggy Hood. He also was a penetrate guy and a 3 technique player, like Hargrave, but we tried to turn him into a 5 technique and it failed miserably.

I would use Hargrave during our sub packages, which are not 60%+ of our defensive snaps, and put McCullers in during running plays and our base 3-4.

This is how I'd use our defense.

Base 3-4
LOLB- Dupree
LILB- Shazier
RILB- Timmons
ROLB- Harrison, Chickillo or JJ depending on play.

LDE- Heyward
NT- McCullers
RDE- Tuitt

LCB- Gay
RCB- Cockrell
FS- Mitchell
SS- Golden/Davis/Thomas

Sub Package 3-3-5

LOLB- Dupree
MLB- Shazier
ROLB- Timmons

LDE- Heyward
DT- Hargrave
RDE- Tuitt

LCB- Gay
RCB- Cockrell
FS- Mitchell
SS- Golden
Nickel- Golson

4-2-5

LB- Shazier
LB- Timmons

LDE- Dupree
LDT- Heyward
RDT- Hargave
RDE- Harrison

LCB- Gay
RCB- Cockrell
FS- Mitchell
SS- Golden
Nickel- Golson
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
Steelers wanted a versatile guy who could play NT, but also be athletic enough to rush the passer and play DE to sub for Heyward and Tuitt. Hargrave can stand up to double teams and has the quickness to rush the passer.

At over 300 lbs, he ran 4.91 in the 40.

The combine measured Edge Speed for pass rushers, which is just how fast you can turn the corner. They measure from the left and the right sides. Most are faster on one side, whichever they are used to lining up at.

Here some edge speed times
Joey Bosa ...........left 2.56 right 2.13
DeForest Buckner left 1.83 right 1.77
Emanuel Ogbah ...left 2.71 right 1.99
Shaq Lawson ...... left 2.15 right 2.12
Noah Spence....... left 1.89 right 1.97

Javon Hargrave..... left 1.80 right 2.04

That's pretty damn impressive for a guy over 300 Lbs
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He really can't stand up to double teams. Don't go crazy with the love.

When he got stood up square in D-II competition or chipped or really double teamed he was really ineffective. He won at his level because he was just so much quicker off the snap and strong in gaps and could cross the face of offensive lineman that were grossly inferior to him athletically.

That's part of the big question mark of this pick. How well do the Steelers expect him to "hold up" when asked to do pure strength things in the trenches and will that lack of ability take him off the field or not?

The quickness and talent are all there to attack gaps and go after the shoulder of a guard (Mitchell said just as much). It's how we fit that ability into what we do that is the big question mark right now. I really don't know yet.
 
It comes down to how much the game has changed. I doubt guys like Joseph and Neal would have been such high picks a few years ago, but Arizona with Deone Buchanan and the Rams with Mark Barron have shown how effective it can be in sub packages to use a safety to play LB.

Since they changed rules to heavily favor passing, teams are in sub packages over 60% of the time. Steelers are no different. At this point, I think we have to consider the classic 3-4 front as the sub package and the run stuffing NT as the part time role player.

Hargrave is no Casey Hampton vs the run, but I don't think Hampton would play all 3 downs today. I think Hargrave will be able to stalemate the middle well enough that he's not a liability. And if he is, then they can sign a plugger to play run downs. I bet they will be able to get one cheap.
 
Hampton never ever played 3-downs for us. But it used to be 50-60% snaps and now it would be 35-40% snaps.

It is a different game. And I'm really okay with the discussion that likely went into how we stacked the board between Hargrave vs. Billings vs. Henry (Michigan). I would have loved to been a fly on the wall for that meeting with Tomlin, Colbert and Mitchell.

Just don't jump to any conclusions about his ability. He's not a first round talent for a reason. He's got a lot of work to do. I just hope that Colbert/Butler/Mitchell don't expect him to walk in the door and be a 2-gap player first and make that the criteria that gets him reps or snaps in games. If you draft a player like, put him in spots where he does what he does best. Mitchell said he'd line up over the guard, I want to see Tomlin and Butler call the plays for him to do that.
 
I think they are happy using McCullers in there for limited snaps. I think they like Hargraves quickness to develop and play anywhere on the line.
 
deljzc said:
Hampton never ever played 3-downs for us. But it used to be 50-60% snaps and now it would be 35-40% snaps.

It is a different game. And I'm really okay with the discussion that likely went into how we stacked the board between Hargrave vs. Billings vs. Henry (Michigan). I would have loved to been a fly on the wall for that meeting with Tomlin, Colbert and Mitchell.

Just don't jump to any conclusions about his ability. He's not a first round talent for a reason. He's got a lot of work to do. I just hope that Colbert/Butler/Mitchell don't expect him to walk in the door and be a 2-gap player first and make that the criteria that gets him reps or snaps in games. If you draft a player like, put him in spots where he does what he does best. Mitchell said he'd line up over the guard, I want to see Tomlin and Butler call the plays for him to do that.
Click to expand...

I'm dreaming about the nickel with the three monsters playing upfront, Tuitt, Hargrave, Heyward
 
deljzc said:
Hampton never ever played 3-downs for us. But it used to be 50-60% snaps and now it would be 35-40% snaps.

It is a different game. And I'm really okay with the discussion that likely went into how we stacked the board between Hargrave vs. Billings vs. Henry (Michigan). I would have loved to been a fly on the wall for that meeting with Tomlin, Colbert and Mitchell.

Just don't jump to any conclusions about his ability. He's not a first round talent for a reason. He's got a lot of work to do. I just hope that Colbert/Butler/Mitchell don't expect him to walk in the door and be a 2-gap player first and make that the criteria that gets him reps or snaps in games. If you draft a player like, put him in spots where he does what he does best. Mitchell said he'd line up over the guard, I want to see Tomlin and Butler call the plays for him to do that.
Click to expand...

If they wanted a 2 gap, they would have taken Billings. They wanted a pass rusher. Hargrave will get a starters worth of snaps. Either at NT or subbing at DE. If Hargrave does show good pass rush skills, then maybe they start taking Jarvis off the field for the sub package and go with a 3-3-5 alignment with Timmons at MLB, Shazier and Dupree at MLB and Mitchell or Davis playing in the box.
 
That's a very likely scenario, Tape (3-3-5)
 
In the last decade, I don't think this team ever played 3-3-5.
 
Not necessarily.

Billings might have been off their board altogether due to medical concerns.

I kind of agree with the "middle ground" here.

1. They like McCullers. As a 1st and 10 and obvious run down situations, he's the guy. That's 300-400 snaps right there.

2. I think you'll see Hargraves phased in to very specific situations to start this year. Maybe 2nd and middle/long. Maybe 3rd and 3. Down/distances that aren't quite run plays anymore in the NFL but still something you don't want to jump the gun and play nickel defense. Especially if the offense isn't showing 3 WR's. There are a lot of situations that have morphed in the NFL into passing downs with 12 or 21 personnel.

I think Tomlin wants to play some 1-gap styles on those type plays just to mix things up. Might only be 100 snaps this year, who knows.... but that's all we need. And we'll get some plays like that on tape for the coaches to review and see if they like it, if it works, etc.

Hell, we might ditch it after the bye week or we might end up using more of it.
 
deljzc said:
In the last decade, I don't think this team ever played 3-3-5.
Click to expand...

true but the OLBs have always been the main pass rushers so you would never take one of them off the field. Plus the NTs have not been pass rushers so it was logical that the NT should come off for the extra DB.

Now the DEs are the best pass rushers, with Hopefully Dupree being #3. If Hargrave shows he can pressure better than Jarvis then it makes sense to take Jarvis off the field as the least useful player vs the pass.

This draft tells me the steelers want to be more versatile and change up their schemes.
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
true but the OLBs have always been the main pass rushers so you would never take one of them off the field. Plus the NTs have not been pass rushers so it was logical that the NT should come off for the extra DB.

Now the DEs are the best pass rushers, with Hopefully Dupree being #3. If Hargrave shows he can pressure better than Jarvis then it makes sense to take Jarvis off the field as the least useful player vs the pass.

This draft tells me the steelers want to be more versatile and change up their schemes.
Click to expand...

I can see the 4-2-5 Dline looking more like:

LDE- Dupree
LDT- Tuitt
RDT- Hargrave
RDE- Heyward
 
deljzc said:
He really can't stand up to double teams. Don't go crazy with the love.

When he got stood up square in D-II competition or chipped or really double teamed he was really ineffective. He won at his level because he was just so much quicker off the snap and strong in gaps and could cross the face of offensive lineman that were grossly inferior to him athletically.

That's part of the big question mark of this pick. How well do the Steelers expect him to "hold up" when asked to do pure strength things in the trenches and will that lack of ability take him off the field or not?

The quickness and talent are all there to attack gaps and go after the shoulder of a guard (Mitchell said just as much). It's how we fit that ability into what we do that is the big question mark right now. I really don't know yet.
Click to expand...

For round three, it was not a bad pick. He has gap shooting and pass rushing skills, but you're right. I have some doubts if he can hold up vs the run in a 3-4. He's short, with short arms. If Hargrave gets pushed back too easily, he's going to be a sub-package player in a 4 man front.

I would have taken Billings, unless he knee was that bad. We don;t have such access to medical reports.
 
Coach said:
I have some doubts if he can hold up vs the run in a 3-4. He's short, with short arms. If Hargrave gets pushed back too easily, he's going to be a sub-package player in a 4 man front.

I would have taken Billings, unless he knee was that bad. We don;t have such access to medical reports.
Click to expand...


Same exact height as Casey Hampton, 6 lbs lighter. Casey Hamptons arms were actually a 1/2" shorter than Hargraves. Strength wise,, Snack did 34 reps of 225. Hargraves did 29. Hargraves has speed though .




http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/javon-hargrave?id=2555239

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/casey_hampton.html
 
Not what we wanted him for primarily. He will make his mark in our sub packages. If he develops to be able to play in our 3-4 that's just a plus.
 
Coach said:
I would have taken Billings, unless he knee was that bad. We don;t have such access to medical reports.
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apparently his knee was plenty ******* bad if he dropped from late first to 4th round.
 
From what I understand though, what we do is changing. We do not expect our down linemen to just be space eaters - we expect them to shoot gaps, penetrate, and rush the passer. Butler's D is not an exact clone of Lebeau's D. I think I've said this before, but Billings would have been a better fit in the heyday of Casey Hampton. But in 2016, with a Keith Butler defense, Hargrave is the way to go. He will be expected to be disruptive in the backfield from the interior, and also step in when Tuitt and/or Heyward need a breather

Plus I do think he has the pure strength to compete. He is a really big dude - just compact. And his strength numbers are very solid. I am not concerned about him holding up
 
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Coach said:
For round three, it was not a bad pick. He has gap shooting and pass rushing skills, but you're right. I have some doubts if he can hold up vs the run in a 3-4. He's short, with short arms. If Hargrave gets pushed back too easily, he's going to be a sub-package player in a 4 man front.
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He's going to be that anyway. It also means he will play a TON of snaps if they use Dupree, Tuitt, Hargrave and Heyward as their front line. I'd take that for a majority of snaps over having Jones or Harrison on the outside with their hand in the dirt.
 
Steelers hope Hargrave has nose for football

By F. Dale Lolley May 5, 2016

South Carolina State defensive lineman Javon Hargrave competes in the 40 yard dash at the NFL football scouting combine Sunday, Feb. 28, 2016, in Indianapolis. (AP Photo/Gregory Payan)
PITTSBURGH – Javon Hargrave passed his first two big tests on the way to the NFL. He showed he could compete with players from bigger schools at the college all-star games, then showed that athletically, he was as good as, if not better than them at the NFL Scouting Combine.

The South Carolina State nose tackle will get his third opportunity to show he belongs in the NFL today, when he takes part in a rookie mini-camp with the Steelers. The rookie camp ends Sunday.

Pittsburgh’s third-round pick in last weekend’s draft can’t wait. He grew up a fan of the Steelers, and is well-versed in what will be required of him to be perhaps the missing piece on what is expected to be a much-improved defense.

“The trophies,” Hargrave said of the first thing that stood out to him about his first trip to the Steelers’ facility for a pre-draft visit last month. “Growing up and seeing the championships, I tried not to show how happy I was to be there, but it was just like, ‘I’m really here?’ It was crazy. I kept telling everybody that Pittsburgh was my best trip, but they all thought it was because that was my favorite team growing up.

“They made you feel welcome and at home, so that was great for me.”

Hargrave (6-1, 309 pounds) will be thrown into the defensive line mix. Though the Steelers are happy to have a player who recorded 37 1/2 sacks at South Carolina State, Hargrave must be ready for some tough love.

Defensive line-assistant head coach John Mitchell is a perfectionist when it comes to defensive line work and he breaks young players down the way a drill sergeant before building them back up.

Mitchell gushes about Hargrave’s potential and what it could mean to Pittsburgh’s defense. Once they hit the practice field, the compliments will vanish until Hargrave consistently does things to Mitchell’s liking.

“I told this kid, I want to be his worst nightmare,” said Mitchell, who has been with the Steelers since 1994. “When he wakes up at night, I want him thinking about Coach Mitchell. When he looks in the mirror, I don’t want him to see himself; I want him to see me. This guy has to be a good football player.

“I don’t treat rookies very well. There’s a standard here. I want these guys to know, when they come and put on the black and gold, there’s a standard that’s going to be accepted.”

The Steelers first noticed Hargrave at the Senior Bowl in January. Hargrave was a late addition to the practices because of an injury to another player.

But he immediately stood out.

“He came in, his equipment hadn’t arrived yet, and he was in a white helmet,” said Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert. “He comes in with fresh legs. He was really having a productive practice. We didn’t even know who he was at that point because he hadn’t been officially added to the roster. From that point forward, this kid is a little different. He’s better than a 1-AA player. I think the things that he does naturally would translate anywhere else. He didn’t play the best competition every week. So now he gets his chance and we hope it works.”

The Steelers had a need at nose tackle after starter Steve McLendon left as a free agent for the Jets in the offseason. Third-year player Daniel McCullers remains on the roster, but played minimal snaps last season.

And the 6-7, 350-pound McCullers and Hargrave play a different style of nose tackle. While McCullers is a space-eater, Hargrave is effective because of a quick first step honed as a high school basketball player.

That quick first step helped him record 16 sacks as a junior – including an astounding six in a game against Bethune-Cookman – and 13.5 as a senior. He also had 62 tackles for a loss in college.

But, it might also be a hindrance in his dealings with Mitchell.

“He was so quick coming off the ball, he never had to use his hands,” said Mitchell, who said learning hand placement will be one of the biggest issues for Hargrave.

“In college football now, everybody wants to get to the quarterback. They just want to get upfield. In the National Football League, you’ve got to play run and pass. Since I’ve been here, the thing I want to do is stop the run. We were fifth in the run. That’s unacceptable to me, it’s unacceptable to the Steelers and it’s unacceptable to Coach (Mike) Tomlin. We want to be 1 or 2 against the run and that’s going to help our pass defense be better. When you’re fifth in the NFL against the run, that’s not good defense.”

The Steelers like Hargrave because he could give them some flexibility not only as a nose tackle, but as a pass rusher in their nickel and dime defenses.

McLendon rarely saw the field in those instances and it was normal to see defensive ends Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt participate in 90 or more percent of the defensive snaps in a game. Mitchell wants to cut that back to 55 to 60 snaps per game for Heyward so Tuitt and Hargrave could help make that happen.

“I’m 300-plus pounds, but I feel like I have a high motor,” said Hargrave. “I can be on the field 30 to 50 plays because that’s all I did my whole life, just played every down.”

First, he has to pass through Mitchell’s gauntlet of tests and criticisms. If he does that, he’ll be just fine, despite being a small school guy.

“People worry about the competition (level). You can’t do anything about that,” Mitchell said. “Go look at the Senior Bowl, go look at the East-West, he got there late and he played against the big boys. I’m glad teams bypassed him because they were worried about him playing at South Carolina State.”
 
Black & Gold Bleeder said:
Same exact height as Casey Hampton, 6 lbs lighter. Casey Hamptons arms were actually a 1/2" shorter than Hargraves. Strength wise,, Snack did 34 reps of 225. Hargraves did 29. Hargraves has speed though .




http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/javon-hargrave?id=2555239

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/casey_hampton.html
Click to expand...


When you talk Nose Tackles, the best way to judge their run defense is vs good competition Do they get pushed back or not? Can they hold their own on a double team? Hampton was as close to an immovable football player.

Hargrove has issues here, and he mostly played vs lesser competition. Essentially he's a much better gap shooter 3 technique type, and fits our 4 man fronts and can add value as a pass rusher.

But as a 3-4 NT vs the run, I have my doubts. Shazier would shine better if we had a Hampton at NT, as he keep the interior lineman off his inside linebackers.
 
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