Rating our offensive starters.

[Coach]

Fair assessment, but poor names for the ratings. I still have to call a guy that is average a '5' if we are on a 10-point scale. But can't say I'd change any of the ratings more than 0.5-1 at most.

I am working on the descriptions a bit and edited some..

1,2,3,4,5

6,7,8,9,10

Each group has five numbers. In-between is 5.5

 

[obxsteeler]

Probably the only place Ben is more under rated than by some national pundits is by some here in Pittsburgh. Not a surprise if you were here during the Bradshaw era. I did hear Jim Kelly say this morning that what is making Newton move to greatness is that he is learning to use his legs to set up his passes like Ben does and when he gets as good there will be no stopping him. It will be interesting to see if Newton can dissect Denver the way Ben did in the regular season game if they sell out to stop the run.

 

[Coach]

Heath really hasn't fallen off that much. 60 receptions was second most on team and 4th highest season total of his career.
Still blocks well, but has fallen off a bit in yards after the catch. Real problem is we don't have a second TE getting a reasonable
amount of catches.

He has fallen off. How much is debatable. This site has excellent data

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MillHe00.htm

Miller's yards per catch for the season was at a career low and touchdowns for the season were the 2nd lowest in his career.

8.9 yards per catch, just 2 TD's

I still think he's a great blocker and leader though. Next season he'll be 34.

 

[Stryker]

I like the fact that you've done work on this Coach. I think people are getting spun up over the rating system. Personally adding "in their prime" or "decline" pushes buttons and takes away from the ratings themselves. It would be easier to rate evenly, if the top 3 were:

10: HOF caliber player
9: Pro Bowler
8: Fringe Pro Bowl player (Great on field play, may or may not make the pro bowl depending on injuries and Superbowl exemption status of players before them) This year Heyward and RB Williams were rated here IMHO.

The rest I have no problem with.

 

[Coach]

I like the fact that you've done work on this Coach. I think people are getting spun up over the rating system. Personally adding "in their prime" or "decline" pushes buttons and takes away from the ratings themselves. It would be easier to rate evenly, if the top 3 were:

10: HOF caliber player
9: Pro Bowler
8: Fringe Pro Bowl player (Great on field play, may or may not make the pro bowl depending on injuries and Superbowl exemption status of players before them) This year Heyward and RB Williams were rated here IMHO.

The rest I have no problem with.

I'm going to take option #8 and edit the thread

 

[Litos]

I like the fact that you've done work on this Coach. I think people are getting spun up over the rating system. Personally adding "in their prime" or "decline" pushes buttons and takes away from the ratings themselves. It would be easier to rate evenly, if the top 3 were:

10: HOF caliber player
9: Pro Bowler
8: Fringe Pro Bowl player (Great on field play, may or may not make the pro bowl depending on injuries and Superbowl exemption status of players before them) This year Heyward and RB Williams were rated here IMHO.

The rest I have no problem with.

I'm going to take option #8 and edit the thread

I proposed that **** first, at least give me the credit haha

 

[Coryea]

I gotta disagree with you about giving Ben a 10 and Brown a 9. Now obviously, they both rely on each other HEAVILY. But...

Antonio Brown has been by far the BEST WR for the past 2 years. While Ben has been pretty damn good, he has never been the BEST QB in any given year.

Look at Brown without Ben, and look what Ben did vs the best defense in the NFL without Brown. I love Brown, but without Ben, Brown isn't Brown, without Brown, Ben is still Ben. Ben is the only 10 on the team, if Brown's numbers didn't take such a big hit when Ben went down, I'd put Brown up there.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

You don't have to be the best quarterback in the NFL to be a HOFer; he's had 11 years of outstanding play, 3 trips to the Super Bowl and 2 wins and if he hangs them up tomorrow he will get into the HOF. I doubt the same is true for Brown (Hanging them up tomorrow and getting into the HOF.). He's on his way and without injury he will get there, but he isn't there yet. I don't think fans realize how good Ben Roethlisberger is because on occasion he does make plays that make you say WTF were you thinking? However, as we saw earlier this year without Ben, AB's numbers slumped. I think we know who needs who more. It's the nature of the NFL, the quarterback has become exponentially more important than any other player on any team.

San Diego - 3/45/0
Zona - 3/24/0
KC - 6/124/0
Balt. 5/42/0

IMO, Brown doesn't get anywhere near 1800 yards without Ben and even with Bell in the game. Ben changes the game and will be a HOFer when he's done playing, AB still has a long way to go. The days of getting into the HOF with the minuscule receiving yards like Stallworth and Swann are over. Brown (continuing on his current trajectory) will exceed the receiving yards of these two HOFers combined when his career is over.

Of course, this is only my opinion as I see it right now.

Papillon

I agree with alot of your points.

Ben definitely has an argument for the HOF today. And when we win #7 he will be a lock.

Brown, on the other hand, has a long way to go for his yellow jacket. But I was just saying that over the past couple of years, Brown has been playing at an INCREDIBLY elite level of play. He is, in fact, the best WR in the league. When you have been the #1 at your position over consecutive years, I'd say that you've earned yourself a 10.

Just my opinion.

 

[Coryea]

Brown has been at an elite level, no doubt, but Ben has been elite with Ward, Holmes, Wallace, and now Brown, he's shown he can put up numbers and win with different WR's, Brown is good, but not elite with other QB's, of course how many WR's have been elite without a QB to match?

 

[wig]

how many WR's have been elite without a QB to match?

Fitzgerald, Megatron, Moss, Rice had one elite QB and one good QB.

Brown is an amazing worker and an extraordinary talent. I wouldn't take a thing in the world away from him. But he benefits from having one of the most accurate downfield passers in NFL history as his career teammate and a fellow who is determined to get him the ball as consistently as he possibly can.

 

[madinsomniac]

He has fallen off. How much is debatable. This site has excellent data

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MillHe00.htm

Miller's yards per catch for the season was at a career low and touchdowns for the season were the 2nd lowest in his career.

8.9 yards per catch, just 2 TD's

I still think he's a great blocker and leader though. Next season he'll be 34.

Miller was buried in an offense that had two legit RBs, three Wideouts two of which have gamebreaking skills, and the third is very very good. and another TE that took downfield away while he stayed in to block by season's end. I think Heath is more underused than clearly done...

 

[madinsomniac]

Fitzgerald, Megatron, Moss, Rice had one elite QB and one good QB.

Brown is an amazing worker and an extraordinary talent. I wouldn't take a thing in the world away from him. But he benefits from having one of the most accurate downfield passers in NFL history as his career teammate and a fellow who is determined to get him the ball as consistently as he possibly can.

Rice played with two HOF qbs... Brown is what he is because of exceptional quickness and crisp perfectly run routes and a lot of hard work on the sidelines... skill for skill he is probably better talented than Rice, who benefitted greatly from using many of the routes and schemes we commonly use now but were rarely run then. That $(r offense was probably the second "technical play reliant" offense run in the NFL, and most DBs had no clue how to defend it.

 

[Coryea]

Fitzgerald, Megatron, Moss, Rice had one elite QB and one good QB.

Brown is an amazing worker and an extraordinary talent. I wouldn't take a thing in the world away from him. But he benefits from having one of the most accurate downfield passers in NFL history as his career teammate and a fellow who is determined to get him the ball as consistently as he possibly can.

Moss was **** when he had a ****** qb, he did great with Culpepper who was one of the better QB's when he played in Minn and then with Brady. Megatron is the one to come to mind, not sure how long Fitz played with Warner who was a HOF finalist. Ben has produced with different WR's like every two seasons, and without Brown he shredded that Denver D that dominated the MVP Cam and Brady. Brown without Ben put up average numbers

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Not arguing Miller's age is catching up with him, but he is still an above average TE when all aspects of his deployment are considered. His yards per catch were down this year, in part due to the fact that he frequently had to chip before his release. The part of the field that was most open for him was also the short range chain moving area, we had the other routes covered. I'm not suggesting he cod be a deep threat either, rather he was deployed properly for his skill set which equated to a low ypc average.

 

[Clete]

Moss was **** when he had a ****** qb, he did great with Culpepper who was one of the better QB's when he played in Minn and then with Brady. Megatron is the one to come to mind, not sure how long Fitz played with Warner who was a HOF finalist. Ben has produced with different WR's like every two seasons, and without Brown he shredded that Denver D that dominated the MVP Cam and Brady. Brown without Ben put up average numbers

Moss was never shot, he made mediocre QBs look great might wanna check out his year by year stats.

Also a little known fact that tells what Moss was worth. His teams led the league in rushing over his career. He did not block but the deep double coverage he drew opened up the running game. Was more effective than any WR blocking including Hines.

 

[Coryea]

Moss was never shot, he made mediocre QBs look great might wanna check out his year by year stats.

Also a little known fact that tells what Moss was worth. His teams led the league in rushing over his career. He did not block but the deep double coverage he drew opened up the running game. Was more effective than any WR blocking including Hines.

Maybe ****** is a strong word, but when he left Minnesota and went to Oakland he had 60 catches in 05 and 42 in 06, then went to NE and put up big numbers again. Moss is a freak, not doubt, and that's my point, it's rare for a WR to put up big numbers without a very good QB. And that's the point of this thread, Ben has proven he can put up big numbers no matter who the WR's are, while, Brown didn't put up very good numbers without Ben, so I don't see how you can rank Brown higher.

Team's Moss played for only led the NFL is rushing one season, and were top 5 only one other time, other than that, his teams ranked fairly low in rushing.
Minnesota's rushing rankings with Moss (11, 14, 6, 25, 1, 4, 18) Oaklands (29, 29) NE's(13, 6, 12) so I'm not buying him being a deep threat was more effective than Ward was blocking

 

[papillon]

I agree with alot of your points.

Ben definitely has an argument for the HOF today. And when we win #7 he will be a lock.

Brown, on the other hand, has a long way to go for his yellow jacket. But I was just saying that over the past couple of years, Brown has been playing at an INCREDIBLY elite level of play. He is, in fact, the best WR in the league. When you have been the #1 at your position over consecutive years, I'd say that you've earned yourself a 10.

Just my opinion.

Fair enough, I think it all depends on time frame, in your case you've selected recent years for Brown and in that case Brown is clearly a 10, in my case I took their body of work (probably incorrectly) and evaluated it and in that case Brown is on his way, but not quite a 10. Depending on the time frame Brown can be a 8.5 - 9 or a 10, IMO, either way he is in all likelihood the best WR in the NFL right now.

Papillon

 

[21STEELERS21]

We beat Denver with Brown and lost to Denver without him. If Brown doesn't get hurt, we might be holding a trophy right now.