Degree of excitement…………….

[diver]

I think at the very least it's a symptom of the disease. Whether or not you have a coaching tree who gives a sheeeet if you win right? And obviously there are coordinators who leave a championship team and suffer. There are also cases of one's doing very well. It's a mixed bag. Haslam is an NFL owner so obviously stupid decisions are made all the time but you can't say coordinators sought after by other franchises is meaningless. It's not like all owners and GMs are dunces and they are throwing a dart. Successful coordinators that are wanted elsewhere means something. It does reflect on the ability of a head coach to surround himself with talented coaches.

If we compare rhe coordinators early in tomlins career to the last 10 years there is a noticeable difference. I don't think you can argue Lebeau vs Austin or Whisenhunt or Arians vs Canada and the list goes on.

When all other franchises don't want your coordinators do you honestly really believe all the FOs are plain ole stupid and can't see the amazing talent Mike surrounded himself with?

Look at the Lions post Ben Johnson. Look at the Bears. You can't tell me he wasn't an outstanding coordinator.

I don't know what the issue was. Was Mike a control freak? Did Mike have difficulties in assessing coaching talent? Did the best coordinators find the Steelers unattractive? I really don't know what exactly the issue was but to me we underachieved with our talent the last ten plus years and it was the X and Os that did us in and to me that's all because we had coordinators that were below the talent we had and that's on Tomlin. So yeah the fact that his coaching tree sucked isn't directly the issue but it's Indicitive of the issue

He certainly didn't have the best coordinators. And I'm not sure either as to why.

I think you have to play the coaching tree argument in real world applications, and if you do, is it as important or fun to talk about then? McCarthy has said there are two coaches on his staff that could be potential head coaches, Tom Arth and Patrick Graham. Let's do a hypothetical. The Steelers have a great year, and Tom Arth gets hired as Cleveland's next head coach. Not out of the realm of possibility, Cleveland goes through head coaches like crap through a goose. But the stars align, Cleveland drafts the next great thing at QB and Tom Arth is the coach when they finally turn that mess around. McCarthy is still in Pittsburgh, he signed a 5 year deal, but now Cleveland is a much bigger threat to everybody in the division. Are we all gonna sit here and go, "That's fine we lost to the Browns. Tom Arth is the coach, and he is from Mike McCarthy's tree?" Will that sooth anyone? Beside the fact that I believe every coach has to be his own man to be successful anyway, the real world hypothetical I just laid out just doesn't make me excited to talk about coaching trees, because it has happened. Were 49er fans fine losing to Holmgren and Green Bay? How about Green Bay fans to Reid and the Eagles? Do you remember in 2001 when the Steelers were rolling and they go out to Cincy with Dick LeBeau as head coach? Cowher is giving LeBeau a candy bar before the game, the Steelers went up 14-0 and it felt like they let their foot off the gas, they lose. I remember being so pissed because it felt like they let up. The thought of coaching tree, while it never entered my mind, sure as helll wouldn't have helped.

 

[Polambertberger]

He certainly didn't have the best coordinators. And I'm not sure either as to why.

I think you have to play the coaching tree argument in real world applications, and if you do, is it as important or fun to talk about then? McCarthy has said there are two coaches on his staff that could be potential head coaches, Tom Arth and Patrick Graham. Let's do a hypothetical. The Steelers have a great year, and Tom Arth gets hired as Cleveland's next head coach. Not out of the realm of possibility, Cleveland goes through head coaches like crap through a goose. But the stars align, Cleveland drafts the next great thing at QB and Tom Arth is the coach when they finally turn that mess around. McCarthy is still in Pittsburgh, he signed a 5 year deal, but now Cleveland is a much bigger threat to everybody in the division. Are we all gonna sit here and go, "That's fine we lost to the Browns. Tom Arth is the coach, and he is from Mike McCarthy's tree?" Will that sooth anyone? Beside the fact that I believe every coach has to be his own man to be successful anyway, the real world hypothetical I just laid out just doesn't make me excited to talk about coaching trees, because it has happened. Were 49er fans fine losing to Holmgren and Green Bay? How about Green Bay fans to Reid and the Eagles? Do you remember in 2001 when the Steelers were rolling and they go out to Cincy with Dick LeBeau as head coach? Cowher is giving LeBeau a candy bar before the game, the Steelers went up 14-0 and it felt like they let their foot off the gas, they lose. I remember being so pissed because it felt like they let up. The thought of coaching tree, while it never entered my mind, sure as helll wouldn't have helped.

I think part of the coaching tree argument that is hard to flush out is just because a DC or OC failed as a head coach doesn't necessarily mean he was a bad OC or DC. Being a head coach requires multiple skill sets and I think anyone who said Tomlin didn't excel at any of those is just a hater. It's hard to win in the NFL and the players loved playing for him. To consistently have a winning record in the NFL is extremely hard so he did certain things really well obviously. The question is what did he do well and what did he struggle with?

We can go on and on about the coaching tree thing as an indication he had bad coordinators or we can say it's meaningless. Who really gives a flying F. The fact is he didn't have great coordinators for lomg stretches of his tenure and that to me was his downfall......not the FO, not the talent, not his ability to connect with the players, not work ethic, and not organization. I think he had a poor coordinator hiring tenure and I also think he wasn't flexible enough in his systems (which corresponds to not having the right coordinators).

From what I understood Mike was more of a here's the system and we just need to execute instead of questioning the system in the first place. The coordinators and his rigidity to the system they employed together to me was his issue. I never felt like they attacked their opponent week to week. They just focused on executing their plan. If the plan is flawed based on their opponent then execution is not very meaningful.

He was a likeable guy in many ways but it's hard to love him when you can't win a playoff game. He won a SB. That was great but with the way the last decade went I feel all he managed to do with that SB win was execute Cowhers team.....so he gets credit but not the same as Cowhers SB because not only did Cowher build the team but he executed as well.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Tomlin is gone, we should be focusing all of our energy complaining about McCarthy.

MCCarthy would obviously win a SB very quickly if stupid, dumb Tomblin would’ve left any groceries in the cupboard like his predecessor did for him.

Any failures this year are ALL obviously a result of the stupid dumb Tomblin mismanaged rosters and depleted talent levels…any success this year obviously MM overcoming the stupid dumb Tomblin handicap he was given.

Stupid dumb Tomblin

 

[Drink IRON City]

MCCarthy would obviously win a SB very quickly if stupid, dumb Tomblin would’ve left any groceries in the cupboard like his predecessor did for him.

Any failures this year are ALL obviously a result of the stupid dumb Tomblin mismanaged rosters and depleted talent levels…any success this year obviously MM overcoming the stupid dumb Tomblin handicap he was given.

Stupid dumb Tomblin

How fast can the veteran players transition from that stupid dumb-Azz scheme (both sides of the ball) and play with instinctual play instead of the transition thinking of the play.?

I just hope players don’t look lost out there, having actual communication should help a lot.

Again, I don’t think McCarthey’s system will be dumb-azz but will see some time adjusting to it.




Salute the nation

 

[bigben]

I think at the very least it's a symptom of the disease. Whether or not you have a coaching tree who gives a sheeeet if you win right? And obviously there are coordinators who leave a championship team and suffer. There are also cases of one's doing very well. It's a mixed bag. Haslam is an NFL owner so obviously stupid decisions are made all the time but you can't say coordinators sought after by other franchises is meaningless. It's not like all owners and GMs are dunces and they are throwing a dart. Successful coordinators that are wanted elsewhere means something. It does reflect on the ability of a head coach to surround himself with talented coaches.

If we compare rhe coordinators early in tomlins career to the last 10 years there is a noticeable difference. I don't think you can argue Lebeau vs Austin or Whisenhunt or Arians vs Canada and the list goes on.

When all other franchises don't want your coordinators do you honestly really believe all the FOs are plain ole stupid and can't see the amazing talent Mike surrounded himself with?

Look at the Lions post Ben Johnson. Look at the Bears. You can't tell me he wasn't an outstanding coordinator.

I don't know what the issue was. Was Mike a control freak? Did Mike have difficulties in assessing coaching talent? Did the best coordinators find the Steelers unattractive? I really don't know what exactly the issue was but to me we underachieved with our talent the last ten plus years and it was the X and Os that did us in and to me that's all because we had coordinators that were below the talent we had and that's on Tomlin. So yeah the fact that his coaching tree sucked isn't directly the issue but it's Indicitive of the issue

Spot on

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

flesh out

 

[SteelerSask2]

We are in Banff on holidays. 7 hour drive home. Leaving early and minimal stops. Im really looking forward to watching young guys play.

 

[warriors42]

who's starting QB tomorrow night? hope both Allar and Howard get an entire half each.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

who's starting QB tomorrow night? hope both Allar and Howard get an entire half each.

The speculation I’ve heard is Rudolph starts, then Howard gets in the first half, then Allar after halftime, nothing in stone yet that I’ve heard. I hope Howard plays a lot

 

[Drink IRON City]

The speculation I’ve heard is Rudolph starts, then Howard gets in the first half, then Allar after halftime, nothing in stone yet that I’ve heard. I hope Howard plays a lot

I think Howard is going to have to have near perfect pre-season / training camp to actually over take Rudolf.

I know that is not a popular statement, but probably holds more true than just hoping he (Rudolf) is cut / traded.

I think MM will not let go of Rudolf unless he is fully convinced it is the best way to go.





Salute the nation

 

[SteelerSask2]

I think Howard is going to have to have near perfect pre-season / training camp to actually over take Rudolf.

I know that is not a popular statement, but probably holds more true than just hoping he (Rudolf) is cut / traded.

I think MM will not let go of Rudolf unless he is fully convinced it is the best way to go.





Salute the nation

Like I said until otherwise proven differently I'm gonna trust MM's appraisal. He's watching all of them every day. I think the Question on Howard is "could he?" I feel jury is in on Mason. He might be a better backup, in the moment but cannot.

 

[Badcat]

Like I said until otherwise proven differently I'm gonna trust MM's appraisal. He's watching all of them every day. I think the Question on Howard is "could he?" I feel jury is in on Mason. He might be a better backup, in the moment but cannot.

Perhaps a back up somewhere else? It really depends on the mission. Is the plan to play Aaron and if he were to get hurt, play the young buck and streamline the playbook like they did with Ben? Leave Mason at #2 to give the team a better shot at winning now? If that's the case, will Mike carry 4 QB's?

 

[Sarge]

The speculation I’ve heard is Rudolph starts, then Howard gets in the first half, then Allar after halftime, nothing in stone yet that I’ve heard. I hope Howard plays a lot

I read that it’s Rudolph, Allar and Howard gets the 2nd half.

Guess it doesn't matter. It's pre-season. Hasn't meant much in a while.

 

[Sarge]

If that's the case, will Mike carry 4 QB's?

It would be dumb, because you'd be sacrificing depth somewhere else. I don't care if it is Allar or Howard, I'm just hoping one of them is the guy that gets the Steelers out of this cycle of grizzly old retreads.

 

[Djfan]

I read that it’s Rudolph, Allar and Howard gets the 2nd half.

Guess it doesn't matter. It's pre-season. Hasn't meant much in a while.

I agree Sarge, but I refuse to judge the present with MM, by the past with MT. I am still convinced that he did little with a lot, and MM is more likely to do a lot with a little.

We'll see.

 

[SteelerFan448]

It would be dumb, because you'd be sacrificing depth somewhere else. I don't care if it is Allar or Howard, I'm just hoping one of them is the guy that gets the Steelers out of this cycle of grizzly old retreads.

I disagree. If you have any sort of glimmer of hope that either Howard or Allar can develop, but need time, I keep them 10 out of 10 times over CB6 or ILB5. QB is by far the most important position. Get someone else to play special teams. I'm already irritated Homer is going to probably make the roster as the personal protector for the punter when he offers basically nothing as a running back.

 

[xjx]

You must invest in the qb position. Carrying 4 qb's helps achieve that goal. Stop pussyfooting around. That's what Tomlin did. Tomlin the pussyfooter!

 

[Sarge]

 

[SteelerSask2]

Perhaps a back up somewhere else? It really depends on the mission. Is the plan to play Aaron and if he were to get hurt, play the young buck and streamline the playbook like they did with Ben? Leave Mason at #2 to give the team a better shot at winning now? If that's the case, will Mike carry 4 QB's?

He's not carrying 4 unless its an injury stash. They will decide if Howard could be the guy. If he might Rudy is gone. If that looks doubtful Howard could clear waivers for PS.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

How fast can the veteran players transition from that stupid dumb-Azz scheme (both sides of the ball) and play with instinctual play instead of the transition thinking of the play.?

I just hope players don’t look lost out there, having actual communication should help a lot.

Again, I don’t think McCarthey’s system will be dumb-azz but will see some time adjusting to it.




Salute the nation

I’m hyped for the intelligence level MM and Graham bring to the table compared to their predecessors.

These growing pains will be preferable to the annual “communication issues” trying to grasp the Tomlin-Austin scheme as these current growing pains WILL lead to growth.

I’m quite optimistic of that

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Jets depth chart, Geno Smith, Cade Klubnik, Bailey Zappe, Brady Cook and UDFA out of Mizzou, also last year.

I dont think howard stays on the practice squad. Just my feeling.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Jets depth chart, Geno Smith, Cade Klubnik, Bailey Zappe, Brady Cook and UDFA out of Mizzou, also last year.

I dont think howard stays on the practice squad. Just my feeling.

I’m pretty sure you are right.

It would take Howard balling out rest of TC and near perfect pre-season.

That currently isn’t happening because if he was actually separating himself from Allar, we would have been hearing it by now. Training camp has progressed enough to have been able to see that.

Some say trade him, currently you would have no or very few at a 7th (doubtful anyone would bite on that as they would just wait till cut downs)

If he is actually good enough for the 4th QB on roster (this is a sort of a blind spot), the Steelers would have to be serious on keeping him or trading Rudy as the season progresses), that will not happen.

They may try to keep him on the PS and if successful, that tells you right there he isn’t beating out Drew Allar…… ever.

Sometimes inheritance of previous regime players is just not meant to be. It wouldn’t apprise me if the Steelers released him on first cutdowns, giving him a better chance of catching on somewhere (they would talk to him and see what he wants as they would lay out the equation on their side).

Good Luck to him regardless of how it plays out. He has big enough hands, unlike KFP, secure the rope to hang on somewhere.




Salute the nation

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

I’m pretty sure you are right.

It would take Howard balling out rest of TC and near perfect pre-season.

That currently isn’t happening because if he was actually separating himself from Allar, we would have been hearing it by now. Training camp has progressed enough to have been able to see that.

Some say trade him, currently you would have no or very few at a 7th (doubtful anyone would bite on that as they would just wait till cut downs)

If he is actually good enough for the 4th QB on roster (this is a sort of a blind spot), the Steelers would have to be serious on keeping him or trading Rudy as the season progresses), that will not happen.

They may try to keep him on the PS and if successful, that tells you right there he isn’t beating out Drew Allar…… ever.

Sometimes inheritance of previous regime players is just not meant to be. It wouldn’t apprise me if the Steelers released him on first cutdowns, giving him a better chance of catching on somewhere (they would talk to him and see what he wants as they would lay out the equation on their side).

Good Luck to him regardless of how it plays out. He has big enough hands, unlike KFP, secure the rope to hang on somewhere.




Salute the nation

Mike M. previously has said , he would have taken Howard Earlier than the 6th. I also keep in mind that Allar was playing against the 3rd and 4th line players most of whom wont be on a team come September.. I know Allar did well. Good on him. Good on McCarthy and Arth. Its whats between the ears and arm talent. If i can get a reliable stream this preseason, it will be fun to watch. Last night wasnt good for me. Im pulling for all 3 of the back ups. I previously was down on Allar. This is a good situation i guess.. Not one that we are used to being in.