So players play and coaches coach?

[Drink IRON City]

Here let me clarify:

Of course Teryl Austin sucks, he's running Tomlin's ****** scheme on top of sucking individually as a D.C....double suckage.

Double truth in this post, thank you SIR.



Salute the nation

 

[Drink IRON City]

The Dolphins scheme caused him to get flicked aside by Metcalf, a WR, last night. The Steelers scheme may be a little better in that it caused him to get flicked aside by Derrick Henry.

When he was here, there was many times he couldn’t be flicked…………… to far out of the play by scheme.



Salute the nation

 

[Drink IRON City]

Not going to argue Minka's stats and not trying to diss him as he was great when he was here, but he looked old, slow, and just sloppy as far as tackling and reacting to plays.

The Tomlinization affect.

Minka was strong so it took awhile for the Tomlinization to take hold.



Salute the nation

 

[Hypocycloids]

Not a fan of Darnell Washington, Nick Herbig or Derrick Harmon?

I don’t ever recall fans bitching nearly as much about the player abilities or lack thereof on Cowhers teams as we have in the Tomlinship era.
So was it more about talent or coaching? I say it’s about talent.

For starters every starting QB post Ben sucked, “Broderick Jones is a turnstile ”, “our line can’t run block,” “ JPJ uses gets penalized to often”, “this guy can’t cover”, “this LB can’t cover”, “Najee Harris sucks”, “Rudolph sucks”, “Chase Claypool doesn’t fight for the ball” (or was that JuJu?), “Pickens takes plays off”…Starters Devin Bush, Kendrick Green, Jarvis Jones. The AB fiasco. “Minkah too slow and lost a step”. The latest is that our D is too old.
If I took the time to look back I could probably find a dozen more examples.

After every game Chico posts a thread pointing out the “game goats”. Why not he just disregard and blame coaching?

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

You and I are a lot closer to our opinions of Tomlin than you think, which is why I find it somewhat funny. If you would say to my brother or a few of my Steeler buddies, "He's a Tomlin apologist!" they'd say, "What?" He needs to go and they need a fresh outlook. I have a reason though why I focus on the players too, and I think it is important to do so. I'm not sure how old you are and if you remember when Cowher came in. His fresh approach and scheme changes made a huge difference. I absolutely agree a coach can impact that positively or negatively. But when the change occurred, you knew the team had some real talent, guys that could play and thrive in those schemes. We knew Rod Woodson was great, guys like Greg Lloyd, Dermontti Dawson, Carnell Lake were excellent, guys like John Jackson and Carlton Haselrig were pretty good. You look at this team now, idk, do you see that? Their best guys are old, and it doesn't seem like there are a number of young guys you are pretty sure of. Frazier and Fatanu and maybe McCormick. That's it. But is there great youth? Even excellent youth? I think this team is led poorly by the coaching staff, but I also don't think the talent is necessarily there.

We’ve talked about this before, Tomlin has his hands all over roster creation, there are many examples of quotes showing that: Tomlin saying we got our guy in Pickett, Tomlin saying Najee was the target all along, Rodgers and Wilson saying interactions with Tomlin were huge reasons they signed here. You’re right the roster isn’t nearly as good as it was when Tomlin took over for Cowher. Especially since Khan has been the GM-Tomlin is responsible for the decline in the roster quality, not to mention lack player development from bad assistants Tomlin also selected, and keeps despite these failures as part of the reason the roster isn’t as good-all on Tomlin

 

[stillwright]

You and I are a lot closer to our opinions of Tomlin than you think, which is why I find it somewhat funny. If you would say to my brother or a few of my Steeler buddies, "He's a Tomlin apologist!" they'd say, "What?" He needs to go and they need a fresh outlook. I have a reason though why I focus on the players too, and I think it is important to do so. I'm not sure how old you are and if you remember when Cowher came in. His fresh approach and scheme changes made a huge difference. I absolutely agree a coach can impact that positively or negatively. But when the change occurred, you knew the team had some real talent, guys that could play and thrive in those schemes. We knew Rod Woodson was great, guys like Greg Lloyd, Dermontti Dawson, Carnell Lake were excellent, guys like John Jackson and Carlton Haselrig were pretty good. You look at this team now, idk, do you see that? Their best guys are old, and it doesn't seem like there are a number of young guys you are pretty sure of. Frazier and Fatanu and maybe McCormick. That's it. But is there great youth? Even excellent youth? I think this team is led poorly by the coaching staff, but I also don't think the talent is necessarily there.

I would also throw in Barry Foster into that group. I always laugh when people say Cowher didn't Inherit any good players when he became our HC.

 

[Coryea]

I would also throw in Barry Foster into that group. I always laugh when people say Cowher didn't Inherit any good players when he became our HC.

I'm not sure who ever said Cowher didn't inherit any good players??? I've heard people say he didn't inherit a good team, which is true, they made the playoffs 1 time in 7 seasons before Cowher took over

 

[diver]

I would also throw in Barry Foster into that group. I always laugh when people say Cowher didn't Inherit any good players when he became our HC.

Cowher did inherit some good players. I never understood the complaint about Tomlin in that regard, either. Tomlin inherited a good team! So what? Was he supposed to trade them all away and bring in all of "his" guys? Both Cowher and Tomlin deserve credit for what they accomplished with those teams, and it should left at that, and should not be used to disparage either guy.

The difference is Cowher built a few teams that made and then won championships. Tomlin hasn't, which is a perfectly valid criticism.

 

[diver]

We’ve talked about this before, Tomlin has his hands all over roster creation, there are many examples of quotes showing that: Tomlin saying we got our guy in Pickett, Tomlin saying Najee was the target all along, Rodgers and Wilson saying interactions with Tomlin were huge reasons they signed here. You’re right the roster isn’t nearly as good as it was when Tomlin took over for Cowher. Especially since Khan has been the GM-Tomlin is responsible for the decline in the roster quality, not to mention lack player development from bad assistants Tomlin also selected, and keeps despite these failures as part of the reason the roster isn’t as good-all on Tomlin

I agree with that. But why do people get upset with me when I say the talent issue, the evaluation issue needs to be addressed first before we get to schemes? Talking about scheme first seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

If they insist on keeping Tomlin, I would argue his input into player acquisition needs to be scaled back markedly. When I say I don't blame Tomlin for running a more conservative offense, for example, what I mean is that he created the mess with his player evaluation and acquisition...he is doing what is best with what he created. That isn't exactly an endorsement. I read somewhere a while back one of the insiders make a great point. He said something to the effect that Tomlin's greatest quality is making something at least competitive out of the mess he creates.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

I agree with that. But why do people get upset with me when I say the talent issue, the evaluation issue needs to be addressed first before we get to schemes? Talking about scheme first seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

If they insist on keeping Tomlin, I would argue his input into player acquisition needs to be scaled back markedly. When I say I don't blame Tomlin for running a more conservative offense, for example, what I mean is that he created the mess with his player evaluation and acquisition...he is doing what is best with what he created. That isn't exactly an endorsement. I read somewhere a while back one of the insiders make a great point. He said something to the effect that Tomlin's greatest quality is making something at least competitive out of the mess he creates.

I think if you’d concede that Tomlin picked and failed to develop the players who aren’t making the plays when you say that it would be much better received.

When you just say sometimes the players need to make plays it deflects a lot of the responsibility off Tomlin-no one wants to hear excuses and caviots made for him anymore, it’s been 8 years without a playoff win, the time for excuses and yeah buts is long passed

We both remember when Tomlin first took over all the vets were complaining about how hard his training camps were and they were going to be compromised in season because of it, when in reality it was exactly what that team needed. When Tomlin got here the atmosphere was too relaxed, he changed that and that’s why he won a Super Bowl with Cowhers players-and he deserves credit for whipping a talented team back into shape.

Now it’s a combination of him having too much control over personnel and making some bad choices AND it’s HIS team that has gotten complacent and too comfortable and the results of the past decade speak for themselves-he owns ALL of that. Maybe he can reinvent himself on another team like Andy Reid, but he’s failed here and needs to go

 

[slashsteel]

I think if you’d concede that Tomlin picked and failed to develop the players who aren’t making the plays when you say that it would be much better received.

When you just say sometimes the players need to make plays it deflects a lot of the responsibility off Tomlin-no one wants to hear excuses and caviots made for him anymore, it’s been 8 years without a playoff win, the time for excuses and yeah buts is long passed

We both remember when Tomlin first took over all the vets were complaining about how hard his training camps were and they were going to be compromised in season because of it, when in reality it was exactly what that team needed. When Tomlin got here the atmosphere was too relaxed, he changed that and that’s why he won a Super Bowl with Cowhers players-and he deserves credit for whipping a talented team back into shape.

Now it’s a combination of him having too much control over personnel and making some bad choices AND it’s HIS team that has gotten complacent and too comfortable and the results of the past decade speak for themselves-he owns ALL of that. Maybe he can reinvent himself on another team like Andy Reid, but he’s failed here and needs to go

Andy Reid knows X and Os. Mike will be no Andy Reid elsewhere. Anyone is more than welcome to bookmark my response.

As I am going on record and saying he maxed out his success.

 

[Coryea]

Andy Reid knows X and Os. Mike will be no Andy Reid elsewhere. Anyone is more than welcome to bookmark my response.

As I am going on record and saying he maxed out his success.

Unless some coach retires with a stacked roster and coordinators in place.

 

[slashsteel]

Unless some coach retires with a stacked roster and coordinators in place.

Exactly… and a franchise QB in his prime.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Exactly… and a franchise QB in his prime.

Through Coach Tomlin, great players have become less.

TJ WATT / Minka Fitzpatrick / Issac Seumalo, Ben Roethlisberger (1/2 career), to name a few.

His scheme / sub-coaching hires / player developement and more, have been substandard and that has history to prove it.

I want him gone, his chair on down to the towel boy/girl..

To change the culture you need complete change.




Salute the nation

 

[Djfan]

Andy Reid knows X and Os. Mike will be no Andy Reid elsewhere. Anyone is more than welcome to bookmark my response.

As I am going on record and saying he maxed out his success.

You may be right, and I hope we find out soon.

 

[diver]

I think if you’d concede that Tomlin picked and failed to develop the players who aren’t making the plays when you say that it would be much better received.

When you just say sometimes the players need to make plays it deflects a lot of the responsibility off Tomlin-no one wants to hear excuses and caviots made for him anymore, it’s been 8 years without a playoff win, the time for excuses and yeah buts is long passed

We both remember when Tomlin first took over all the vets were complaining about how hard his training camps were and they were going to be compromised in season because of it, when in reality it was exactly what that team needed. When Tomlin got here the atmosphere was too relaxed, he changed that and that’s why he won a Super Bowl with Cowhers players-and he deserves credit for whipping a talented team back into shape.

Now it’s a combination of him having too much control over personnel and making some bad choices AND it’s HIS team that has gotten complacent and too comfortable and the results of the past decade speak for themselves-he owns ALL of that. Maybe he can reinvent himself on another team like Andy Reid, but he’s failed here and needs to go

But it shouldn't. It doesn't in my mind at all because it is true...players need to make plays. A lot of football is defeating the man in front of you. It has always been that, and always will be. But to me that doesn't give Tomlin a pass in the least.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

But it shouldn't. It doesn't in my mind at all because it is true...players need to make plays. A lot of football is defeating the man in front of you. It has always been that, and always will be. But to me that doesn't give Tomlin a pass in the least.

So after the Bills gashed us on the ground, we were ranked in the bottom of the league in run defense, then the run defense dramatically improved against the Ravens and Dolphins do you honestly think it was the players playing massively better or do you think the scheme changed to facilitate that massive change in performance?

Because if you want Tomlin and his staff given credit for the run defense getting better the last 2 games, the great offense in the 2nd half Sunday night, or you in this thread when you wanted Tomlin given credit for Minkas good years….

Then you half to condemn him BIG TIME for his bottom line failure to win a playoff game for 8 years, which of course is all that matters

 

[SteelerFan448]

Through Coach Tomlin, great players have become less.

TJ WATT / Minka Fitzpatrick / Issac Seumalo, Ben Roethlisberger (1/2 career), to name a few.

His scheme / sub-coaching hires / player developement and more, have been substandard and that has history to prove it.

I want him gone, his chair on down to the towel boy/girl..

To change the culture you need complete change.

I question the examples of great players who have become less. I think all of these guys have been terrific with dips in production with Minkah for sure, but Watt is slowing down and offenses get rid of the ball so fast, and Seumalo is older and injured a bunch, but good when healthy.

The problem is Tomlin's philosophy basically depends on star players to star. He needs to out talent teams more than outscheme them. It's why you see so many individuals trying to make plays and get out of position. LeBeau's defense was so focused on guys doing their job and working as a unit (outside of Polamalu).

 

[WindyCitySteel]

I would also throw in Barry Foster into that group. I always laugh when people say Cowher didn't Inherit any good players when he became our HC.

What did Barry Foster do before Cowher got there? He was a 5th round pick, Cowher made him a star.

Tomlin gets the same credit for guys like Deebo.

 

[Drink IRON City]

I question the examples of great players who have become less. I think all of these guys have been terrific with dips in production with Minkah for sure, but Watt is slowing down and offenses get rid of the ball so fast, and Seumalo is older and injured a bunch, but good when healthy.

The problem is Tomlin's philosophy basically depends on star players to star. He needs to out talent teams more than outscheme them. It's why you see so many individuals trying to make plays and get out of position. LeBeau's defense was so focused on guys doing their job and working as a unit (outside of Polamalu).

You answered for me, the scheme is Coach Tomlin’s and a better scheme would get more out of those many players.

LeBeau’s defense took players into their strengths, Tomlin’s defense puts players in less position to succeed.

I know Players have to play and make plays, but TJ Watt was not used to his full potential, due to scheming or inability to make adjustments——— Coach Tomlin.

Offense same

Salute the nation

 

[Coryea]

What did Barry Foster do before Cowher got there? He was a 5th round pick, Cowher made him a star.

Tomlin gets the same credit for guys like Deebo.

And he lucked into Deebo, he let Porter walk, then drafted Timmons to be the ROLB, Deebo was the place holder, but played so damn good you couldn't take him off the field so Timmons then was moved to ILB.

 

[diver]

So after the Bills gashed us on the ground, we were ranked in the bottom of the league in run defense, then the run defense dramatically improved against the Ravens and Dolphins do you honestly think it was the players playing massively better or do you think the scheme changed to facilitate that massive change in performance?

Because if you want Tomlin and his staff given credit for the run defense getting better the last 2 games, the great offense in the 2nd half Sunday night, or you in this thread when you wanted Tomlin given credit for Minkas good years….

Then you half to condemn him BIG TIME for his bottom line failure to win a playoff game for 8 years, which of course is all that matters

It was both because it takes both. It is not one or the other, although since players are out there doing the playing I believe it depends more on them. I do not know how anyone can argue otherwise. It defies logic.

I didn't give Tomlin credit for Minkah. I clearly said I give credit to Minkah for those years.

I do condemn him for his failure to win. He should lose his job over it.

 

[diver]

And he lucked into Deebo, he let Porter walk, then drafted Timmons to be the ROLB, Deebo was the place holder, but played so damn good you couldn't take him off the field so Timmons then was moved to ILB.

So? Would you rather he took him off the field to prove a point?

This is such a stupid criticism of Tomlin. His ego didn't get in the way of that team and the players and coaches that were there. That deserves credit, not some roundabout form of condemnation.

 

[Coryea]

So? Would you rather he took him off the field to prove a point?

This is such a stupid criticism of Tomlin. His ego didn't get in the way of that team and the players and coaches that were there. That deserves credit, not some roundabout form of condemnation.

No, I never said anything about him taking him off the field, that happens all the time. It's not a criticism of Tomlin, just the way it went down. Tom Brady was 4th string going into 2001, the 3rd string guy, I think Davey go hurt in NFL Europe, then the back-up in the preseason, then finally Bledsoe in the regular season.

 

[Coryea]

So after the Bills gashed us on the ground, we were ranked in the bottom of the league in run defense, then the run defense dramatically improved against the Ravens and Dolphins do you honestly think it was the players playing massively better or do you think the scheme changed to facilitate that massive change in performance?

Because if you want Tomlin and his staff given credit for the run defense getting better the last 2 games, the great offense in the 2nd half Sunday night, or you in this thread when you wanted Tomlin given credit for Minkas good years….

Then you half to condemn him BIG TIME for his bottom line failure to win a playoff game for 8 years, which of course is all that matters

Actually Baltimore ran for 200+ yards on us too.