Not sure exactly what you meant by "trade up" --- maybe a typo --- but I agree they are just trying to be prepared for any scenario. You have to do that when you're drafting at #22, it's not like picking #4 when you've got 4 guys you would happily snag.
Is Kevin Johnson worthy of 22nd pick overall
- Thread starter Joey Porters Taint
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Not sure exactly what you meant by "trade up" --- maybe a typo --- but I agree they are just trying to be prepared for any scenario. You have to do that when you're drafting at #22, it's not like picking #4 when you've got 4 guys you would happily snag.
what I meant by "trading up" is we're not looking at anyone projected to go ahead of us.
this list, from the other thread, shows that we're looking at guys in our draft range per round:
TE Cameron Clear, Texas A&M
WR DeVante Parker, Louisville*
LB Shane Ray, Missouri
LB Kyle Emanuel, North Dakota State
DL Randy Gregory, Nebraska
QB/WR Devin Garner, Michigan
CB Darryl Roberts, Marshall
RB Matt Jones, Florida
WR Sammie Coates, Auburn
OLB Eli Harold, Virginia
CB Senquez Golson, Ole Miss
TE C.J. Uzomah, Auburn
DE Nate Orchard, Utah
WR Sammie Coates, Auburn
WR Breshad Perriman, UCF
CB Marcus Peters, Washington
CB Alex Carter, Stanford
LB Max Valles, Virginia
DE Nate Orchard, Utah
CB Doran Grant, Ohio State
QB Tyler Murphy, Boston College
OL Quinton Spain, WVU
TE Jesse James, Penn State
no Shelton, no Brown... we expect those guys to be gone.
so we're either going to stand pat at 22 or trade down.
Of course we're not trading up. We have too many holes and too few draft picks. If we somehow had comp picks in rounds 3 and 4 that would be different. Regarding Shelton and Brown, Tombert thinks we are all set at NT. We have 2 guys to play a position that's only on the field 30% of the time.
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I would never say never.
One GM has already come out and stated there might only be 20 players with "1st Round Grades" in this draft class. If Tombert feels strongly enough about a prospect and sees a big dropoff in talent, they might trade up.
My feeling is you trade up when you are desperate at a position and failed to address it adequately in free agency. That sounds like us at OLB and CB.
If they feel like they need a starter quality player to start immediately, they might have to go up and get him.
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as long as they don't give up future picks I could be fine with it
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If Trae Waynes drops to 18-20, they may very well make that move.
i dont see it as "failing to address it in free agency"
it's entirely possible that a rookie could be better than anything we could have afforded at some juncture in FA. to me, that isn't failing. that's just good business.
it's entirely possible that a rookie could be better than anything we could have afforded at some juncture in FA. to me, that isn't failing. that's just good business.
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Well, I think when you have good depth BEFORE the draft, I think teams are much more likely to just stand pat or trade back. The good teams look for deals that increase their teams value and often trading up doesn't do that. Trading back or trading for future picks (like New England does) is representative of them never having needs that one guy has to fix. Belichick always thinks he can coach a guy up to get by. Sometimes that works. Sometimes not.
Normally teams without glaring needs are the ones that stack their board correctly and stick to that board.
Over the Tombert era, this is the weakest I've seen two positions (both in talent and depth) heading into a draft. For a long time in the late 00's I thought offensive line was pretty weak, but the team never forced that position. They waited and eventually got pretty good value in the Pouncey and DeCastro picks.
Do they do that with OLB? Do we not force it and wait a few drafts for the talent to fall into our laps?
We'll see how it shakes out.
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I seriously doubt they draft for a position just because they have need at it unless they like the player. And quite frankly, I would rather that we get a top notch guard if there isn't an OLB or CB worthy. I mean, this board about has mental breakdowns at missed first round picks anymore.....
Its obvious the majority of our following here is too young to remember the debacle of drafting during the 1980s .... I wonder what a message board would do today with a Tim Worley and Tom Ricketts mess in round 1.....
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The issue isn't drafting for "need".
What happens is you subconsciously push people up your board based on a need you know exists in the back of your head. No one ever consciously picks a worse player because they play a position, but they don't stack their board correctly in the first place.
It doesn't take much to do that.
Not counting how teams push up quarterbacks because of positional value and need, it happens all the time that teams say "so-and-so" was the top guy on my board and wouldn't you know it, it just happens to be a spot we need someone. What a coincidence.
What we really mean when we say "draft to need" is that the board isn't correct. There are tons of subconscious reasons why that could and does happen around the league. And the whole premise any one "board" is correct is flawed as well (there is inherent error in this whole process).
To me, need isn't the correct reason to push people up board, but positional value is. That's because the reward for finding a cheap LT or a cheap pass rusher or a cheap QB (especially in years 2-4) is MORE REWARD than finding a Center or ILB or safety. The cost to fill that roster spot at QB, OLB or LT is more expensive than a C or ILB or S.
That's the correct way to stack a board. What reward does a pick offer our team if it works out. What is the appropriate "fail rate" of the pick (the risk). And how can we use our limited picks to get the most reward, with the least amount of risk.
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the latest mock draft on cbssports has the Steelers picking Kevin Johnson, but the interesting thing is that Dupree is still available-
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25152515/nfl-mock-draft-50-eagles-trade-twice-to-land-marcus-mariota
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25152515/nfl-mock-draft-50-eagles-trade-twice-to-land-marcus-mariota
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I've seen that on more than one lately.
NO! I would rather take Dupree and hope to develop him than a skinny shrimp at 185 lbs.
Interesting take on Kevin Johnson at THR, by Drew Boylhart:
Kevin Johnson CB Wake Forest
TALENT BOARD ROUND 5
STRENGTHS
Kevin has excellent athletic talent to be an solid cover corner at the next level. He has that quick twitch reaction that the NFL teams love to see and has very good size and length along with good speed. He has those quick feet to go along with that quick twitch and is a smart player as well. Kevin had a lot of repetitions as a pure corner for his college team. He has those long arms that give him a large defensive radius and, if you try to go deep on Kevin, he will do just about anything he can to make sure the receiver he is covering does not catch the ball. Kevin has the potential to be an excellent corner back for the team that selects him providing he corrects some glaring issues that could become magnified at the next level.
CONCERNS
Kevin is a penalty machine waiting to happen at the next level. Unfortunately, he is immature and if a player is successful against him, Kevin will do something stupid to get back at him. On the deep ball, Kevin basically assaults the player if he is getting beat and, if he is successful in defending the deep ball, he goes out of his way to make sure everyone knows it from the player to the side lines. Kevin also is what I call a fake tackler. He gets there after the initial tackle is made by some other team mate and then acts like he was the one who made the initial stop. He lacks the bulk and strength to be physical, but tries to be and fails dramatically. The bigger receivers at the next level will literally abuse him physically and the smaller receivers will embarrass him too because Kevin panics and will commit penalties try to stay with them on crossing routes and curls. In my youth, older people would have called Kevin a “punk” and unfortunately, with his antics on the field, I don’t know that I would disagree with them. I DO know that I wouldn’t touch him in this draft.
BOTTOM LINE
There is nothing wrong with Kevin’s talent. Oh, he needs to bulk up and get stronger without it affecting his speed and quickness, but that’s really not the issue. The issue is his maturity on the field and his antics that make me feel that off the field this kid might be deep into things he doesn’t belong in. I’m only going by what I see on the field for this profile, but when you see players giving other players the slash sign and not tackling and grabbing players, but pulling on them theyget beat deep, you have to admit that’s not the way to play the game of football especially with the experience that Kevin has playing cornerback at the college level. I would sit in the combine and interview Kevin and ask him why he gives the slashing across the neck sign to opponents when he makes a good play? I would ask him why he feels the need to grab a player’s jersey on the deep ball when he is running right on the player’s hip. I would ask him why he got thrown out of a game for targeting and in the very next game hit and targeted another receiver and than pranced around like a peacock after it happened -- while the player was hurt on the ground. These, to me, are the actions of a punk and unless Kevin could give me answers to all of these questions that would make sense I think I would let others in this Draft select a player who looks to me like he is not going to start for very long in the NFL. I just bet that if teams take a hard look at Kevin they might find some questionable things off the field because I can tell you this, on the field there are many.
Kevin Johnson CB Wake Forest
TALENT BOARD ROUND 5
STRENGTHS
Kevin has excellent athletic talent to be an solid cover corner at the next level. He has that quick twitch reaction that the NFL teams love to see and has very good size and length along with good speed. He has those quick feet to go along with that quick twitch and is a smart player as well. Kevin had a lot of repetitions as a pure corner for his college team. He has those long arms that give him a large defensive radius and, if you try to go deep on Kevin, he will do just about anything he can to make sure the receiver he is covering does not catch the ball. Kevin has the potential to be an excellent corner back for the team that selects him providing he corrects some glaring issues that could become magnified at the next level.
CONCERNS
Kevin is a penalty machine waiting to happen at the next level. Unfortunately, he is immature and if a player is successful against him, Kevin will do something stupid to get back at him. On the deep ball, Kevin basically assaults the player if he is getting beat and, if he is successful in defending the deep ball, he goes out of his way to make sure everyone knows it from the player to the side lines. Kevin also is what I call a fake tackler. He gets there after the initial tackle is made by some other team mate and then acts like he was the one who made the initial stop. He lacks the bulk and strength to be physical, but tries to be and fails dramatically. The bigger receivers at the next level will literally abuse him physically and the smaller receivers will embarrass him too because Kevin panics and will commit penalties try to stay with them on crossing routes and curls. In my youth, older people would have called Kevin a “punk” and unfortunately, with his antics on the field, I don’t know that I would disagree with them. I DO know that I wouldn’t touch him in this draft.
BOTTOM LINE
There is nothing wrong with Kevin’s talent. Oh, he needs to bulk up and get stronger without it affecting his speed and quickness, but that’s really not the issue. The issue is his maturity on the field and his antics that make me feel that off the field this kid might be deep into things he doesn’t belong in. I’m only going by what I see on the field for this profile, but when you see players giving other players the slash sign and not tackling and grabbing players, but pulling on them theyget beat deep, you have to admit that’s not the way to play the game of football especially with the experience that Kevin has playing cornerback at the college level. I would sit in the combine and interview Kevin and ask him why he gives the slashing across the neck sign to opponents when he makes a good play? I would ask him why he feels the need to grab a player’s jersey on the deep ball when he is running right on the player’s hip. I would ask him why he got thrown out of a game for targeting and in the very next game hit and targeted another receiver and than pranced around like a peacock after it happened -- while the player was hurt on the ground. These, to me, are the actions of a punk and unless Kevin could give me answers to all of these questions that would make sense I think I would let others in this Draft select a player who looks to me like he is not going to start for very long in the NFL. I just bet that if teams take a hard look at Kevin they might find some questionable things off the field because I can tell you this, on the field there are many.
A good left tackle sliding to #22? When does that happen? The guys that could drop are guys that probably need to play guard in the NFL.
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I'm at the point in my draft analysis I see warts on everyone.
Johnson might be "moving up", but in reality what I think is happening is we're seeing some concerns with other 1st round players. Even Dupree, I'm having some misgivings on him and worried I'm watching another Vernon Gholston.
Natural to second guess what you've seen on tape now and see ghosts on everyone during the last week.
Johnson might be "moving up", but in reality what I think is happening is we're seeing some concerns with other 1st round players. Even Dupree, I'm having some misgivings on him and worried I'm watching another Vernon Gholston.
Natural to second guess what you've seen on tape now and see ghosts on everyone during the last week.
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Sort of felt that way for a while on most that are projected to be available out our pick and some who might fall to there. I'm not sure if that is only because they really don't seem worth it, or overall apathy on my part.
I have a hard time getting excited about a CB who shies away from tackling unless he is a Deion type cover corner.
lael collins c.erving tj clemmings ereck flowers dj humpries jack fisher are all good left tackle
Kevin Johnson is thin but he does not shy away from tackling at all. He is a very willing tackler.
I really do not believe either of those guys are worth trading up for by a long shot and do not think gregory is worth the 22 nd pick. I would rather get the best punter or kicker in the draft with the sixth round pick and sure do not want to give up a third when we need so many players. That trade option only gives us a shot at two good players and we will likely end up with a bunch of also ran types.
Is Waynes likely the next Rod Woodson? If not don't trade.