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Jason Worilds

ark steel

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If they re-sign him to a fair number based on his (lack of) production, that's fine, but I can't see beating up our salary cap based on a good one half of one season. Tombert did that this year and what did it get them? 39 tackles and 7.5 sacks. Somebody else wants to pay $8 to $10 million a year for that then fine.

I'm afraid we are going to pay McPhee or Graham that amount for what appears to be similar production. Sure, they had good numbers in limited snaps, but that was after, what, 4 years?(sound familiar?). So did JW season before last.

I don't think either graham or mcphee have started more than a few games per season.
 

Superman

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I'm afraid we are going to pay McPhee or Graham that amount for what appears to be similar production. Sure, they had good numbers in limited snaps, but that was after, what, 4 years?(sound familiar?). So did JW season before last.

I don't think either graham or mcphee have started more than a few games per season.
Graham has started 13 games in 5 seasons.
McPhee has started 6 games in 4 seasons.

A lot of people have hard-ons for these guys... buyer beware
 

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Graham has started 13 games in 5 seasons.
McPhee has started 6 games in 4 seasons.

A lot of people have hard-ons for these guys... buyer beware

I agree wholeheartedly.

A lot of fans suffer from "grass is greener" mentality.

I doubt Mcphee nor Graham come at a huge discount compared to Worilds. It is also uncertain whether these guys would be anything better than average, similar to Worilds.
 

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You are going to send the board into a nuclear meltdown. Sounds like you are saying that Worilds got the tag. I guess I will talk to you in 2 days when the board is back up and running.

Hahaha scared the **** out of me
 

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Well, I have to give some props to Tombert for not taking the easy way out and using the transition tag (or worse, franchise tag) on Worilds again.

Glad it didn't turn into Starks 2.0 like I felt sure was going to happen.

Hope we make a strong play and both Jabaal Sheard and O'Brien Schoolfield, in addition to trying to retain Arthur Moats (I might take Schoolfield over Moats however at the same money).

We'll see how it plays out.
 

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I agree wholeheartedly.

A lot of fans suffer from "grass is greener" mentality.

I doubt Mcphee nor Graham come at a huge discount compared to Worilds. It is also uncertain whether these guys would be anything better than average, similar to Worilds.

I don't know, when your grass is **** brown, you just gotta hope it's greener with someone else. I say let him (Worilds) go & sign one up (McPhee or Graham)!
 

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You could just overlook those making what you consider ridiculous suggestions.

But then I'd never talk to anyone but you, Supe, and Vader and that's a scary thought.
 

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deljzc

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As much as I agree with not franchising tag Worilds (and last year I didn't like the transition tag), I still have a growing concern that this is just another "hit" the Tombert drafts have made that is not being retained by the Steelers into their 2nd contract.

I know Worilds isn't a home run pick, but his career AV of 23 is still higher than 18 other 2nd round picks that year and more than 10 first round picks that season. The guy can still be a functional player. Again, he's not a home run pick, but he is a hit by any definition.

I just don't quite understand if we are picking either more selfish players, leadership is making them more selfish, or there is a change in how much we are offering players in contracts but I guess I think we use to do a better job of retaining draft successes in the past under the Cowher regime (for example) than we are in the Tombert regime. Players like Hood, Wallace, Lewis, Mendenhall, Sanders and now Worilds were all 1st through 3rd round picks that I would consider "hits" (not home rums) but at least were not draft busts. None are still with the Steelers - even as roll players.

I suspect the next generation of draftees (2011-2013) will yield a lot more 2nd contracts. Gilbert and Allen already got them from 2011 and I suspect so will DeCastro, Beachum, Bell, Thomas, Wheaton and maybe even Jarvis Jones (we will see).

But man, when you look back at 2008-2010 and see not only the draft failures but compounded by draft picks that had the talent to be NFL contributors and didn't remain into their mid-to-late 20's with the Steelers... That has to have contributed to our struggles of late in any meaningful playoff run.
 

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As much as I agree with not franchising tag Worilds (and last year I didn't like the transition tag), I still have a growing concern that this is just another "hit" the Tombert drafts have made that is not being retained by the Steelers into their 2nd contract.

I know Worilds isn't a home run pick, but his career AV of 23 is still higher than 18 other 2nd round picks that year and more than 10 first round picks that season. The guy can still be a functional player. Again, he's not a home run pick, but he is a hit by any definition.

I just don't quite understand if we are picking either more selfish players, leadership is making them more selfish, or there is a change in how much we are offering players in contracts but I guess I think we use to do a better job of retaining draft successes in the past under the Cowher regime (for example) than we are in the Tombert regime. Players like Hood, Wallace, Lewis, Mendenhall, Sanders and now Worilds were all 1st through 3rd round picks that I would consider "hits" (not home rums) but at least were not draft busts. None are still with the Steelers - even as roll players.

I suspect the next generation of draftees (2011-2013) will yield a lot more 2nd contracts. Gilbert and Allen already got them from 2011 and I suspect so will DeCastro, Beachum, Bell, Thomas, Wheaton and maybe even Jarvis Jones (we will see).

But man, when you look back at 2008-2010 and see not only the draft failures but compounded by draft picks that had the talent to be NFL contributors and didn't remain into their mid-to-late 20's with the Steelers... That has to have contributed to our struggles of late in any meaningful playoff run.

is the same that happened with Wallace, the pick was a big hit and the market set a huge price on him so the team had to let him go.
Worilds is worth a second contract, at 6M per year tops but if another team offers him more then good riddance

EDIT: Also keep in mind that more teams are playing the 3-4 so there's a bigger demand that makes it harder to retain players
 

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I agree wholeheartedly.

A lot of fans suffer from "grass is greener" mentality.

I doubt Mcphee nor Graham come at a huge discount compared to Worilds. It is also uncertain whether these guys would be anything better than average, similar to Worilds.

I see what your saying but the way I look at it is you know what you had in Worilds and other then a late season run 2 seasons ago he shown nothing worth that kinda money where as if you bring in a new guy there is a chance he plays lights out. Either way you could end up paying the same money for the same production, I have a feeling that Worilds will cost more but we will see.
 

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I see what your saying but the way I look at it is you know what you had in Worilds and other then a late season run 2 seasons ago he shown nothing worth that kinda money where as if you bring in a new guy there is a chance he plays lights out. Either way you could end up paying the same money for the same production, I have a feeling that Worilds will cost more but we will see.

But neither of the two consistently mentioned here has, really, enough playing time to suggest that paying them $6m-$7m+/year is worth find out out if they play lights out in a full time role. Which is why I asked the question earlier. I think Graham and McPhee, at least one, maybe both,, get contracts in that range. Do you, really, think they are worth it? I'm not convinced.

Just like I am not convinced that Worilds should be paid more than ~$6.5m/year without incentives. I think it is clear that he is looking for a bigger contract than that and the FO isn't willing to pay more. I suspect the FO offered him a contract in the $7m range last year, which he turned down, expecting an Kruger like contract, and got tagged. I don't think it is selfish to want $8m if you think you are worth it. He got tagged, and he, clearly, expected he would put up bigger numbers than he did and get an even bigger contract offer the next year. JW Gambled some and "lost", although I don't know how you would consider his tag number as losing...and he will still get a pretty good contract out of it.
 

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But neither of the two consistently mentioned here has, really, enough playing time to suggest that paying them $6m-$7m+/year is worth find out out if they play lights out in a full time role. Which is why I asked the question earlier. I think Graham and McPhee, at least one, maybe both,, get contracts in that range. Do you, really, think they are worth it? I'm not convinced.

Just like I am not convinced that Worilds should be paid more than ~$6.5m/year without incentives. I think it is clear that he is looking for a bigger contract than that and the FO isn't willing to pay more. I suspect the FO offered him a contract in the $7m range last year, which he turned down, expecting an Kruger like contract, and got tagged. I don't think it is selfish to want $8m if you think you are worth it. He got tagged, and he, clearly, expected he would put up bigger numbers than he did and get an even bigger contract offer the next year. JW Gambled some and "lost", although I don't know how you would consider his tag number as losing...and he will still get a pretty good contract out of it.

Young players (coming off first contract) at premium positions who make it to unrestricted free agency (i.e. they avoid a franchise tag or transition tag) always get overpaid. So, in that sense, none of those guys will provide good value. You won't look at the deals they get and determine that they are "worth it". But the question remains: what they heck do the Steelers do if they don't overpay for one of those guys?
 

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As much as I agree with not franchising tag Worilds (and last year I didn't like the transition tag), I still have a growing concern that this is just another "hit" the Tombert drafts have made that is not being retained by the Steelers into their 2nd contract.

I know Worilds isn't a home run pick, but his career AV of 23 is still higher than 18 other 2nd round picks that year and more than 10 first round picks that season. The guy can still be a functional player. Again, he's not a home run pick, but he is a hit by any definition.

I just don't quite understand if we are picking either more selfish players, leadership is making them more selfish, or there is a change in how much we are offering players in contracts but I guess I think we use to do a better job of retaining draft successes in the past under the Cowher regime (for example) than we are in the Tombert regime. Players like Hood, Wallace, Lewis, Mendenhall, Sanders and now Worilds were all 1st through 3rd round picks that I would consider "hits" (not home rums) but at least were not draft busts. None are still with the Steelers - even as roll players.

I suspect the next generation of draftees (2011-2013) will yield a lot more 2nd contracts. Gilbert and Allen already got them from 2011 and I suspect so will DeCastro, Beachum, Bell, Thomas, Wheaton and maybe even Jarvis Jones (we will see).

But man, when you look back at 2008-2010 and see not only the draft failures but compounded by draft picks that had the talent to be NFL contributors and didn't remain into their mid-to-late 20's with the Steelers... That has to have contributed to our struggles of late in any meaningful playoff run.

It's kind of a generational thing.

You're even seeing it in basketball. Players are becoming much more business savvy when it comes to contracts/marketing etc.. I think by now that most athlete's have seen the documentary "Broke", and they know that the multimillion $$ contracts will not last forever. So you are seeing less and less players willing to take 'hometown discounts'. Less players willing to take a pay-cut for their value. But can you fault them?

Additionally, I think calling them selfish is a bit much. They play in one of richest leagues in the world, yet their contracts are both at the lower end of the salary scale and non-guaranteed. If the players are selfish- then what does say about the Rooney/Krafts of the world? Hell, any NFL player that is trying to get paid is not selfish, just intelligent.
 

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It's kind of a generational thing.

You're even seeing it in basketball. Players are becoming much more business savvy when it comes to contracts/marketing etc.. I think by now that most athlete's have seen the documentary "Broke", and they know that the multimillion $$ contracts will not last forever. So you are seeing less and less players willing to take 'hometown discounts'. Less players willing to take a pay-cut for their value. But can you fault them?

Additionally, I think calling them selfish is a bit much. They play in one of richest leagues in the world, yet their contracts are both at the lower end of the salary scale and non-guaranteed. If the players are selfish- then what does say about the Rooney/Krafts of the world? Hell, any NFL player that is trying to get paid is not selfish, just intelligent.

I don't know if I think that is the reason.

To me there has been a change in WHEN we sign draft choices and that has greatly changed the leverage and win-win scenarios that can result.

For some reason throughout the 2007-2010 draft classes, we never seemed to sign anyone early (and by early, I mean after that critical 3rd year in the league). That is the CRITICAL time (and maybe the only time) a win-win contract exists for both parties.

But in order to do that, as an organization, you need to be on top of your game in regards to player evaluation and market value. You have to get correct info from the coaches and self-scouters that these young players ARE potential building blocks for your franchise AND know what to pay them.

When you look back, we kind of passed on every young player when given an opportunity to sign a win-win contract with our rookies. Even Woodley we waited until after year-4, franchise tagged him and (in hindsight) overpaid him. On Wallace, Lewis, Hood, Mendenhall and Sanders we basically let their rookie contracts and RFA tender's expire without long term deals. That puts any type of win-win contract out the window when players are so close to the golden goose (free agency). You have to offer them incentives and the only incentive to take less money is not a "home town discount" (those don't really exist anyhow) but rather pay the player earlier. Giving the bonuses earlier and reducing the players risk/loss at a potential injury are the only way a player takes less money.

We just have stopped doing that. Even with players like Pouncey and Heyward and the new 1st round structure of contracts we are waiting until the very end (after year 4) when the players now are scheduled to earn average top-20 salaries at their positions before talking about new contracts. What incentive does Heyward have to take less money when he's scheduled to make $7 million this year AND be a free agent next year? Same thing happens when you tag someone (like we did with Starks and Worilds). Same thing will happen next year with DeCastro.

DeCasto has made $6.35 million so far in his career. He's seen what injuries can do. He's been in the league enough to know. He is now scheduled to put in another 16 games making only $1.1 million this season and $7 million next year. That's a little over $8 million over the next two seasons. Why can't we find a win-win contract that doubles that AND guarantees something in year 3 (2017)? We can't make a deal to lock up DeCastro now? Why wait? Are we concerned he can't stay healthy? Are we concerned he's not that good?

The longer we wait on DeCastro the more expensive he gets, the less leverage we have and the more risk DeCastro takes. Contracts are about risk. Who is paying for them. You don't get good contracts unless the team is willing to take some risk on players' health and potential to contribute BEFORE proving it on the field.
 

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But neither of the two consistently mentioned here has, really, enough playing time to suggest that paying them $6m-$7m+/year is worth find out out if they play lights out in a full time role. Which is why I asked the question earlier. I think Graham and McPhee, at least one, maybe both,, get contracts in that range. Do you, really, think they are worth it? I'm not convinced.

Just like I am not convinced that Worilds should be paid more than ~$6.5m/year without incentives. I think it is clear that he is looking for a bigger contract than that and the FO isn't willing to pay more. I suspect the FO offered him a contract in the $7m range last year, which he turned down, expecting an Kruger like contract, and got tagged. I don't think it is selfish to want $8m if you think you are worth it. He got tagged, and he, clearly, expected he would put up bigger numbers than he did and get an even bigger contract offer the next year. JW Gambled some and "lost", although I don't know how you would consider his tag number as losing...and he will still get a pretty good contract out of it.

Ark I totally agree however here is my thinking, if either of these two get 6-7 mil something is wrong. Last year the highest OLB contract was Ware at 3/30, then Woodley for 2/12 and then Phillips for 2/4.8. Now at ILB guys like Butler 7/51.8 and Dansby 4/24 lead the way. Based on last year I am looking at one of these two guys mentioned at 3/12 is that not doable am I thinking to low?
 

STEELERS R GR8

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Young players (coming off first contract) at premium positions who make it to unrestricted free agency (i.e. they avoid a franchise tag or transition tag) always get overpaid. So, in that sense, none of those guys will provide good value. You won't look at the deals they get and determine that they are "worth it". But the question remains: what they heck do the Steelers do if they don't overpay for one of those guys?

Great question and I think we get by with signing Harrison and Moats while drafting 2 guys to groom into the future......and cross our fingers they do.
 

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Ark I totally agree however here is my thinking, if either of these two get 6-7 mil something is wrong. Last year the highest OLB contract was Ware at 3/30, then Woodley for 2/12 and then Phillips for 2/4.8. Now at ILB guys like Butler 7/51.8 and Dansby 4/24 lead the way. Based on last year I am looking at one of these two guys mentioned at 3/12 is that not doable am I thinking to low?

I don't think you get either of those guys for $4m/year.

As Al said, they will get overpaid. I do think "overpaid" for those two is a different number than "overpaid" for JW. For example, I think $6m/year for either of those two is over paid, but I'd give that contract to JW.
 
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