If it takes three years to grade a draft, what do you give the Steelers 2012 effort?

[Troglodyte]

I am saying that missing on a guy in the first couple rounds is more costly than missing on a late rounder. You have more money tied up, plus roster space.

2nd and 3rd rounders don't really take up that much cap space. High draft picks, especially 1st rounders are over-valued. You're adding cap management to what we are grading as straight talent evaluation.

 

[TAS]

You guys are way too tough. This was NOT a bad draft by Tombert.

DeCastro was a great pick. He fell and we nabbed him and he's pretty much lived up to everything we hoped for in a first round OL pick. He's a stud.

Adams fell and we took him. Worth the risk/reward. You can't rate this pick on production because it's about the proper analysis of risk/reward at the time of the pick. It's not like Alonzo Jackson who didn't even make it through 2nd year camp. Adams isn't a "failure" like some make him out to be. What's Brian Quick or Stephan Hill or Isaiah Pead or Jerel Worthy doing these days? Those are failure picks. Adams is not.

Even I admit that maybe Spence isn't as bad a pick/fit as I thought because when finally healthy he PLAYED for us this year (both on defense and special teams). I hated the pick at the time because of size/fit, but he has some NFL talent. Most 3rd rounders produce better than Spence however and that's the critique.

Certainly not a D or C in this class, that's for sure.

Can't rate the draft on production? Three years later production is the only thing that you rate it on .... Certainly not ifs and buts.

 

[Vader]

You guys are way too tough. This was NOT a bad draft by Tombert.

DeCastro was a great pick. He fell and we nabbed him and he's pretty much lived up to everything we hoped for in a first round OL pick. He's a stud.

Adams fell and we took him. Worth the risk/reward. You can't rate this pick on production because it's about the proper analysis of risk/reward at the time of the pick. It's not like Alonzo Jackson who didn't even make it through 2nd year camp. Adams isn't a "failure" like some make him out to be. What's Brian Quick or Stephan Hill or Isaiah Pead or Jerel Worthy doing these days? Those are failure picks. Adams is not.

Even I admit that maybe Spence isn't as bad a pick/fit as I thought because when finally healthy he PLAYED for us this year (both on defense and special teams). I hated the pick at the time because of size/fit, but he has some NFL talent. Most 3rd rounders produce better than Spence however and that's the critique.

Certainly not a D or C in this class, that's for sure.

DeCastro was a good pick but he gets over powered by bigger DL. You may think he is going to be a pro-bowler but he isn't one yet. I hated the Adams pick right away because he drove to Pittsburgh to beg the Steelers to keep him on the board after his doobie experiment. I never understood what they saw in the guy. He looks like an unathletic pot head. He's played terrible since he got here. He almost got Ben killed last year until he was benched. Then they used him as a TE to help Gilbert. How some think he played well last year is beyond me. I guess getting benched is a badge of honor?

What makes Adams a failure is that if they had anyone else he'd be gone. I don't rate players high just because Tombert can't find a replacement. Just like Worilds. Yea, he's the best they have but that isn't saying much.

 

[deljzc]

Honestly, the best and most accurate way to judge a draft class is to see how much money they get in their 2nd contracts.

Second contracts in the NFL are very equivalent to "another draft" that gives us a least a "snapshot" of value in time. Sure, we can adjust contract values based on signing early, getting tagged, signing late or the desperation of the team signing them.

It's hard to do (I tried doing it with the 2006 and 2007 drafts) and it's tedious to keep track of the information, but when a GM is willing to give a player X dollars, that's equivalent in principle to a GM investing a certain draft selection on a player. They are both limited resources available to teams.

I think our 2012 draft class is going to be "paid" 2nd contracts that are pretty good in relation to other years: DeCastro is going to get a boatload and Beachem will do very well. I still think Adams is going to get paid here or somewhere else as a solid backup swing tackle ($2 million/season). Spence and Te'amu will still be drawing minimum salaries. So might Paulson.

Who's going to make more money that Beachum after pick #92? Probably no one. How can you guys poo-poo Adams (when in reality he's an average 2nd rounder in this class) while ignoring the fact we drafted the BEST PLAYER from picks #93 through #253 at pick #248. Talk about value.

It's real easy to Monday morning quarterback and say I'd pick this ONE successful guy picked after Adams, but the truth is 75%-80% of the next 50 picks AFTER Adams haven't really set the world on fire either and are mostly backups contributing here and there on their teams like Adams.

The logic against Adams now makes no sense. It was a LOGICAL choice. The criteria used to pick him was sound. The tape backed up the place where he landed (despite what people now say). He has not "busted". He's just not a starter. 50% of all 2nd rounders never become good starters.

I just think in hindsight it's a decent draft. Two guys are going to get good sized contracts. Another is going to get decent backup money. Two look like they are minimum salary guys that will hang around. The others (5th and 7th rounders) scrubbed out.

Overall, that's pretty typical and in fact pretty good.

 

[Vader]

We'll agree to disagree. Using 2nd contracts to value the pick works at times but what about players like Gilbert and Allen? Both with good contracts but Gilbert was abused at times this year and Allen was horrible. Neither have established themselves as "good" draft picks.

Like I said, I hated the Adams pick then and now. You can't value draft picks simply by saying "well some of the guys before and after him sucked". That's a cop out. Adams is NOT contributing here and there. He almost got a $100 million QB killed. He needs help just to stay on the field. The idea that a team over signing a player makes him a better draft pick makes no sense at all. If Adams leaves and signed a bazillion dollar contract and never plays a down does that make it a better draft pick for the Steelers? Does any of this make no sense to anyone but me?

 

[Pie Romania]

Just an outsider's opinion, but I'd rate it a solid B thanks in large part to the Beachum pick in the 7th. Had he not been the pick, a C or C- would have been more appropriate. Hoping my Hawks can get some offensive line talent this coming draft with a steal like that. 2012 continues to look better and better for us (Seattle). I had expected DeCastro to be better honestly, and while I'm usually correct on my O-Line evaluation, he hasn't quite lived up to what I had anticipated for your team.

 

[Supersteeler]

Just an outsider's opinion, but I'd rate it a solid B thanks in large part to the Beachum pick in the 7th. Had he not been the pick, a C or C- would have been more appropriate. Hoping my Hawks can get some offensive line talent this coming draft with a steal like that. 2012 continues to look better and better for us (Seattle). I had expected DeCastro to be better honestly, and while I'm usually correct on my O-Line evaluation, he hasn't quite lived up to what I had anticipated for your team.

Welcome aboard, you seem alright and rational. I know I said Seahawk fans were cunts in another thread, but don't take it to heart, I only meant the cunty ones. Like someone else said, if a Ravens fan can be adopted and hang out here for years then anyone can!

 

[POP]

How many of the picks soon after Adams are clearly better picks than he was?

25 DEN Brock Osweiler, QB, Arizona State
26 TB Lavonte David, OLB, Nebraska
27 PHI Vinny Curry, DE, Marshall
28 BAL Kelechi Osemele, OG, Iowa State
29 SF LaMichael James, RB, Oregon
30 GB Casey Hayward, CB, Vanderbilt
31 NYG Rueben Randle, WR, LSU

1 IND Dwayne Allen, TE, Clemson
2 STL Trumaine Johnson, CB, Montana
3 MIN Josh Robinson, CB, UCF
4 DEN Ronnie Hillman, RB, San Diego State
5 HOU DeVier Posey, WR, Ohio State
6 BUF T.J. Graham, WR, North Carolina State
7 JAX Bryan Anger, P, California
8 WAS Josh LeRibeus, OG, Southern Methodist
9 MIA Olivier Vernon, DE, Miami
10 SD Brandon Taylor, SS, LSU
11 KC Donald Stephenson, OT, Oklahoma
12 SEA Russell Wilson, QB, Wisconsin
13 HOU Brandon Brooks, OG, Miami (OH)
14 NYJ Demario Davis, OLB, Arkansas State
15 MIA Michael Egnew, TE, Missouri
16 CHI Brandon Hardin, FS, Oregon State
17 ARI Jamell Fleming, CB, Oklahoma
18 DAL Tyrone Crawford, DE, Boise State
19 TEN Mike Martin, DT, Michigan
20 CIN Mohamed Sanu, WR, Rutgers
21 BAL Bernard Pierce, RB, Temple
22 DET Dwight Bentley, CB, Louisiana-Lafayette

 

[Pie Romania]

Welcome aboard, you seem alright and rational. I know I said Seahawk fans were cunts in another thread, but don't take it to heart, I only meant the cunty ones. Like someone else said, if a Ravens fan can be adopted and hang out here for years then anyone can!

Oh, I can be dick, but I don't resort to that unless I feel it's necessary. Finding people to discuss football with is few & far between for me, so any opportunity I'm presented with, I'll take.

Back on topic, how much has Spence been on the field this last year? Injuries a huge issue for him? I knew they were an issue as a prospect and he had an injury his rookie season IIRC.

 

[Supersteeler]

Oh, I can be dick, but I don't resort to that unless I feel it's necessary. Finding people to discuss football with is few & far between for me, so any opportunity I'm presented with, I'll take.

Back on topic, how much has Spence been on the field this last year? Injuries a huge issue for him? I knew they were an issue as a prospect and he had an injury his rookie season IIRC.

He missed his first two years completely to a devastating knee injury. It was shredded. Wasn't supposed to ever play again. He fought his way back and saw a lot of time this year replacing Shazier who was oft injured. He split time with VInce Williams and he did pretty well considering it was his rookie season in year 3. Looks like he will be a solid backup if nothing else. I just looked it up. He finished with 53 tackles and a sack.

 

[Litos]

B-
two Solid starters (one of them with star potential) and two decent backups that help when called up. Not a bad draft.

 

[TAS]

Honestly, the best and most accurate way to judge a draft class is to see how much money they get in their 2nd contracts

I don't think bad decisions by front offices are in anyway a gauge either.

How much does Mike Wallace make? Compare that to Antonio Brown
How much did we pay Woodley? Still paying?
Timdong is how much overpaid???
Not a second contract but how much did Worilds make last year? How much over 2 mil will he make next year?

 

[Steelerfan]

Oh, I can be dick, but I don't resort to that unless I feel it's necessary. Finding people to discuss football with is few & far between for me, so any opportunity I'm presented with, I'll take.

Back on topic, how much has Spence been on the field this last year? Injuries a huge issue for him? I knew they were an issue as a prospect and he had an injury his rookie season IIRC.

Let me be the first to hit you with karma (its the six-star icon in the lower left of the posts). You seem reasonable (for a Seahawks fan) and I hope you have a thick skin. You'll find that we bash each other pretty hard, and that's just within the SN family.

 

[deljzc]

I don't think bad decisions by front offices are in anyway a gauge either.

How much does Mike Wallace make? Compare that to Antonio Brown
How much did we pay Woodley? Still paying?
Timdong is how much overpaid???
Not a second contract but how much did Worilds make last year? How much over 2 mil will he make next year?

I think that just shows you even 3-4 years AFTER getting drafted and having film on players, evaluations differ greatly.

I said you have to take into account deals done early (Brown) vs. free agent deals (Wallace) but both of those draft picks are GOOD picks. Wallace has certainly out performed his draft slot and it's not even close really.

Remember, we offered Wallace a pretty substantial payday to stick around. And remember it is a snapshot AT THE TIME of the contracts. When Wallace and Brown were competing for contracts here they were about equal in ability and importance to the offense. That has since changed. Brown continues to improve, Wallace has not (and in fact become less valuable due to his malcontent attitudes).

What I said is when evaluating a draft class, when all the players start signing 2nd contracts you get a nice opportunity to see the players re-evaluated by GM's. Just as the draft itself, there are mistakes (which you can then evaluate after a few years). In fact there are a lot of mistakes. We make mistakes in free agency a lot. So do other teams. But's it's still a glimpse at who is THOUGHT to be a good player or not by the "professionals". To me if you draft a player and 3 years later a GM or team or multiple GMs/Teams think a player is good enough to pay a lot of money to, that's a pretty good indication you are drafting talent. How the coaches use that talent to how much they get out of it or whether he works in the system or whether he plays well with others is kind of other issues worth debating.

 

[obxsteeler]

How many of the picks soon after Adams are clearly better picks than he was?

25 DEN Brock Osweiler, QB, Arizona State
26 TB Lavonte David, OLB, Nebraska
27 PHI Vinny Curry, DE, Marshall
28 BAL Kelechi Osemele, OG, Iowa State
29 SF LaMichael James, RB, Oregon
30 GB Casey Hayward, CB, Vanderbilt
31 NYG Rueben Randle, WR, LSU

1 IND Dwayne Allen, TE, Clemson
2 STL Trumaine Johnson, CB, Montana
3 MIN Josh Robinson, CB, UCF
4 DEN Ronnie Hillman, RB, San Diego State
5 HOU DeVier Posey, WR, Ohio State
6 BUF T.J. Graham, WR, North Carolina State
7 JAX Bryan Anger, P, California
8 WAS Josh LeRibeus, OG, Southern Methodist
9 MIA Olivier Vernon, DE, Miami
10 SD Brandon Taylor, SS, LSU
11 KC Donald Stephenson, OT, Oklahoma
12 SEA Russell Wilson, QB, Wisconsin
13 HOU Brandon Brooks, OG, Miami (OH)
14 NYJ Demario Davis, OLB, Arkansas State
15 MIA Michael Egnew, TE, Missouri
16 CHI Brandon Hardin, FS, Oregon State
17 ARI Jamell Fleming, CB, Oklahoma
18 DAL Tyrone Crawford, DE, Boise State
19 TEN Mike Martin, DT, Michigan
20 CIN Mohamed Sanu, WR, Rutgers
21 BAL Bernard Pierce, RB, Temple
22 DET Dwight Bentley, CB, Louisiana-Lafayette

Is anyone surprised the late 2nd/early 3rd round isn't filled with the kind of talent we seem to expect the Steelers to get every year?

 

[Vader]

The problem is that most Steeler fans (including myself) don't pay attention to every single player on other teams. I'd be shocked if many people know anything about 90% of that group. Hell half could be on their way to a pro-bowl and most wouldn't know it.

Just BTW Casey Hayward:

Hayward was selected in the second round (62nd overall) by the Green Bay Packers. During the month of October 2012, he won the NFL defensive Rookie of the Month, having intercepted 4 passes in 3 games.[12] He finished 3rd for NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year and was named to the NFL All-Joes team. According to Pro Football Focus, opposing quarterbacks had a passer rating of 31.1 against him, the lowest against any corner in the league.

How many people knew that?

 

[Vader]

How about this guy?

On November 27, 2013, David was named NFC defensive player of the week after a great performance against the Lions, the latest in a string of strong performances. His 5.0 sacks and two interceptions on the season, made him one of just six players in franchise history to post those totals in a season along with defensive end Gaines Adams, cornerback Ronde Barber, defensive end Simeon Rice, defensive tackle Warren Sapp and linebacker Broderick Thomas.[22]

On January 3, 2014, Lavonte David was named to the 2013 1st-Team All-Pro roster.[23] During the regular season, David tallied a total of 145 tackles (107 solo), 7 sacks, 5 interceptions, 10 passes defensed, 12 quarterback hurries, a safety and 2 forced fumbles. David's 20 tackles-for-loss in 2013 ranked 3rd in the NFL behind DE's Robert Quinn and JJ Watt who registered 23 and 22, respectively.[24] Despite those numbers, Lavonte did not make the Pro Bowl team for 2013.[25] David finished the year one of only two players in NFL history to record 100 tackles, 6 sacks and 5 interceptions in a season. The other was S Rodney Harrison.

 

[Vader]

Kelechi Osemele came back from back surgery and could be a pro-bowler in the future. He graded out as one of the best OL on the rats.

 

[Vader]

Rueben Randle is a good WR. Maybe not pro-bowl but he started 13 games this past year with over 900 yards 3 Tds. and over a 13 YPC average.

Vinny Curry had more sacks last year than Worilds with 9 sacks. He has 13 sacks the past 2 years. He's their backup LB just like Worilds was here before last year. He also forced 4 fumbles this year.

Dwayne Allen had a great rookie year and then got hurt in 2013 but came back and played well in 2014. He had 8 TDs and is a good blocker.

And I could go on. But the fact is that there were players around that were better than Adams...

 

[Coach]

Rueben Randle is a good WR. Maybe not pro-bowl but he started 13 games this past year with over 900 yards 3 Tds. and over a 13 YPC average.

Vinny Curry had more sacks last year than Worilds with 9 sacks. He has 13 sacks the past 2 years. He's their backup LB just like Worilds was here before last year. He also forced 4 fumbles this year.

Dwayne Allen had a great rookie year and then got hurt in 2013 but came back and played well in 2014. He had 8 TDs and is a good blocker.

And I could go on. But the fact is that there were players around that were better than Adams...

I was a Bobby Massie fan. Vinny Curry would have been sweet.

 

[Hines57]

1 ) OG De Castro - A good, but not great guard. Overpowered at times, but very good on the move.

2 ) OT Adams - A 3rd tackle who played better than expected in 2014, but only sees the field as an extra TE when everyone is healthy

3 ) ILB Spence - An undersized ILB who has been injured. Not starting material. I like Vince Williams better. A back up type

4 ) NT Ta'Amu - Had off the field issues and was cut

5 ) RB Rainey - Had off the field issues as was cut

7 ) WR Clemons - A non factor

7 ) TE Paulson - 3rd TE. Okay as a pass catcher. Awful as a run blocker

7 ) CB Frederick - Too small. He didn't last long

7 ) OT Beachum - A true find! Very shaky as a rookie, but very solid as our Left Tackle. Our best pick in the draft.


Coach's grade. B- We have two starters ( LT and G ), and a few role players. Adams has been a disappointment.

DeCastro A+, he's a stud.
Adams D-
Spence C+, but this one because of the injury lost two years. He looked good this year
Ta'Amu, F, 0.0
Rainey F, 0.0
Clemons, F
Paulson, D-
Frederick, F
Beachum A-, he's the starting LT and while not overpowering, he's well for where he was drafted.

Two starters and one role player who could get much better. I'd like to see more out of the lot of picks. We have three bad washouts with Ta'Amu, Rainey and Clemons and Adams as a 2nd round pick you'd expect to be starting over the guy picked in the 7th round who shouldn't have made the roster.

DeCastro is an absolute stud though. So props for that pick for sure.

 

[SteelerAl]

DeCastro A+, he's a stud.
Adams D-
Spence C+, but this one because of the injury lost two years. He looked good this year
Ta'Amu, F, 0.0
Rainey F, 0.0
Clemons, F
Paulson, D-
Frederick, F
Beachum A-, he's the starting LT and while not overpowering, he's well for where he was drafted.

Two starters and one role player who could get much better. I'd like to see more out of the lot of picks. We have three bad washouts with Ta'Amu, Rainey and Clemons and Adams as a 2nd round pick you'd expect to be starting over the guy picked in the 7th round who shouldn't have made the roster.

DeCastro is an absolute stud though. So props for that pick for sure.

If DeCastro is an A+, then Beachum is an A++++++++++++++++++++++++.

Beachum plays a more premium position and was one of the last picks in the entire draft. He has to be the highest grade from this draft.