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Winston no longer the first round pick?

Coach

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Winston no longer the first pick?

I thought WInston was a character risk off the field and very turnover prone on it. Yes, he has a Jeff George like arm, but why so many mistakes on the field? It did not help that he was slow, had very small hands ( Fumble prone ) and carried some body fat at the combine. In a QB starved lead Winston who was impressive throwing throwing the ball was projected #1 overall. It appears there has been a change in thinking and now Mariota is projected #1 overall despite the fact that he has next to no experience under center and was viewed as a system QB with some accuracy issues.
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>The Bucs are taking Winston. Please stop.</p>— Pete Prisco (@PriscoCBS) <a href="https://twitter.com/PriscoCBS/status/587665865115467776">April 13, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Around this time of the year- the NFL and its writers will often create false narratives in order to create controversy and to receive more 'clicks'...

Actually, no different than your everyday Coach thread:beer:
 
tomorrow's Coach thread:
"Mariotta NOT #1 overall now?!"
"Eagles to trade into #1 slot?"
 
Mariotta is a huge bust anywhere, other than Philly.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>The Bucs are taking Winston. Please stop.</p>— Pete Prisco (@PriscoCBS) <a href="https://twitter.com/PriscoCBS/status/587665865115467776">April 13, 2015</a></blockquote>
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I'll take Mayock over Prisco. Mariota #1 overall is out there on the web.


http://www.nflrush.com/story/mayock-explains-ranking-mariota-1

https://nflmocks.com/2015/04/13/report-says-buccaneers-will-take-marcus-mariota-no-1/

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/cfb/41328/jaws-marcus-mariota-is-going-no.-1-to-tb
 
I think it would be a mistake to take Mariota over Winston
 
Mariotta is a huge bust anywhere, other than Philly.

Not so sure about that. MM is a very good runner, and could do well on teams with taller WR's ( TAMPA ) that mask his accuracy to hit players 15 yards down the field in stride.

I don't think Mariotta will be a bust, more like an average type of QB comparable to say Ryan Tannehill.

I think Winston is very mistake prone, easy to sack, and can quickly fall out of physical shape. I think he's more likely to bust.
 
I think it would be a mistake to take Mariota over Winston

Why Aggie?

Mayock said"

Oregon’s Marcus Mariota is the top quarterback in the draft, ahead of Florida State’s Jameis Winston — according to NFL Network’s Mike Mayock.

Mayock said that as he continues to study Winston, he continues to see flaws.

“There are two issues for me with Winston,” Mayock said on NFL Network. “No. 1 is on the field, he threw 18 interceptions this year, and on the team that arguably had the best talent in the country, he continued to put his team at a disadvantage almost weekly. The first half against Louisville, Miami and Florida were awful. now, he came back in the second half to play tremendously well as we all know. Off the field, regardless of what did or didn’t happen in that alleged rape, he continued a pattern of poor decisions throughout his career. So the bottom line, for me, is can you trust him off the field?”

Mayock said he has fewer concerns about Mariota.

“The more tape I’ve watched, the more I’ve appreciated what he’s asked to do in their version of the spread offense: He reads combination routes, he takes tremendous care of the football, and he wins games. Now, he’s not as natural a thrower, but in the correct scheme I think he can be productive,” Mayock said.


>>In my opinion Winston is going to be easy to sack and a bit fumble prone. Comments that Mayock did not make. In addition, WInston has some fat on him and will need to work hard to stay in shape.
 

I think from a pure football point of view you take Winston every time. I just finished watching the Gruden's QB camp and Mariota didn't have the same quality as a passer, nor did he have that sheer love for the game that is etched throughout Winston. If I'm taking someone #1 overall they had better not be a system QB and they need to show some leadership. Mariota will be a boy scout somewhere and do OK in the right system. If you don't believe that Winston is done making poor life decisions then OK choose someone else but Mariota at #1 or really #10 overall would be forcing things enormously IMO. His mechanics aren't great, one read and off he goes and if he does throw on the run then he doesn't set his feet.

Maybe someone talked to Mayock and said that he needed to mix things up? Who knows but there's no way I take Mariota over Winston.
 
I think they will both suck and hurt whoever drafts them
 
I think from a pure football point of view you take Winston every time. I just finished watching the Gruden's QB camp and Mariota didn't have the same quality as a passer, nor did he have that sheer love for the game that is etched throughout Winston. If I'm taking someone #1 overall they had better not be a system QB and they need to show some leadership. Mariota will be a boy scout somewhere and do OK in the right system. If you don't believe that Winston is done making poor life decisions then OK choose someone else but Mariota at #1 or really #10 overall would be forcing things enormously IMO. His mechanics aren't great, one read and off he goes and if he does throw on the run then he doesn't set his feet.

Maybe someone talked to Mayock and said that he needed to mix things up? Who knows but there's no way I take Mariota over Winston.

To clarify, neither guy would be the #1 overall pick in most drafts. In fact in some drafts they could be the 3rd and 4th QB picked!

Winston has way too interceptions and fumbles vs. some mediocre college teams. I'm shocked this is not an issue.

FSU was loaded on offense. Last season Winston completed 65.3% of his passes. 25 TD's and 18 INT's. 18 INT's is too much for a college QB who played some weak teams. Winston fumbled a few as well. NFL DB's and Pass Rushers are going to be licking their chops.

By contrast Mariota completed 68.3%, 42 TD's, 4 INT's, and ran for 770 yards at 5.7 per rush. Yes, he was a systems guy, but I see a dual threat QB who takes care of the football, and is productive without mistakes.

Winston enters the NFL with character concerns that range a confirmed robbery, and allegations rape ( DNA Match, the police sat on the investigation ) and allegations of fixing a game. Buyer beware.
 
I don't understand how a guy with 27 fumbles (11 lost) over his career "takes tremendous care of the football"....

I mean of course he's not throwing INT. The guys before Mariota threw 7, 9 and 7 INT's in Chip Kelly's system as well (2009-2011).

You wish there was an Andrew Luck in every draft but you often get guys with warts. Even the good guys in the pros have warts except for a very special few.

I like Winston on the field. He is playing NFL football right now. He is reading defense, makes progressions, pulls the ball down, moves in the pocket to buy time and has a very decent arm with excellent zip and above average accuracy. Some throws he makes are BETTER than the average NFL guy. He throws INT's because he actually throws the ball 15+ yards downfield and isn't' afraid to trust his arm into tight windows. Matt Ryan had a ton of INT's too his last year in college and he's become an efficient "protector" of the football at the next level (career 2.3% INT). And that's comparing a SENIOR Ryan vs. a SOPHOMORE Winston.

Scouting Winston is easy on the field. He has it. He can play at the next level. And while the off-field issues are important, you have to cross the "can he play" bridge first. This isn't Russell or Leaf or George or Cutler. Winston has never had an issue being a leader between the lines. His teammates don't think he's an *******. If anything his persona is more comparable to Cam Newton who can rub people the wrong way but doesn't seem to have any real impact in the locker room or on the field.

Mariota is a completely different boat. There are PLENTY of questions about his game on film that might or might not translate to the NFL. He throws too many passes close to the line of scrimmage. His reads are quick, safe and have to be wide open to pull the trigger. There is very little timing in the route combinations. There is little to no 3-step or 5-step drops. He doesn't audible or use a hard count. He is rarely under center.

What he does exceptionally well is what Russell Wilson does well. He is a game manager that understands the threat of his running ability to generate open looks in the pass game. He can not 5-step drop and throw an NFL out route. He can do a 5 step drop, make a quick decisive decision about the primary or secondary play call (probably made pre-snap) and then improvise successful plays.

The issue I have is I still don't know how good Russell Wilson really is. We're talking about a guy who had almost ZERO completions in a whole half of the Super Bowl. Wilson can disappear at times when he makes consecutive, traditional throws from the pocket. I think Mariota will do the same thing. There will be times if the running game is struggling, if down and distance aren't fortunate and teams do a good job of containment that Mariota will do a traditional 5-step drop, throw the ball and it will look like ****. I mean shaking your head "What the hell was that???!!!" type moments. He might be too quick on the trigger. He might not look in time with his receivers. He might pull the ball down and run to no where.

All I see is Russell Wilson when I watch Mariota. And I would argue Wilson probably has the better, more natural over-the-top throwing motion that lends itself to better accuracy than Mariota.

The world is in love with Russell Wilson right now. But he's not exactly "typical", so expecting other non-typical guys to be him (even when they look like him on film) is a hard thing for me to bank on.
 
Winston will be the Bucs pick at #1 overall without a doubt.

Great post, Del. I think Mariotta's bust potential is fairly high. It's great that he is a high character guy who works hard but that doesn't mean he is somehow bust-proof or that his floor is going to be average NFL starter just because he has a good work ethic. He will be asked to play his position in an incredibly different manner in the NFL...
 
I don't understand how a guy with 27 fumbles (11 lost) over his career "takes tremendous care of the football"....

I mean of course he's not throwing INT. The guys before Mariota threw 7, 9 and 7 INT's in Chip Kelly's system as well (2009-2011).

You wish there was an Andrew Luck in every draft but you often get guys with warts. Even the good guys in the pros have warts except for a very special few.

I like Winston on the field. He is playing NFL football right now. He is reading defense, makes progressions, pulls the ball down, moves in the pocket to buy time and has a very decent arm with excellent zip and above average accuracy. Some throws he makes are BETTER than the average NFL guy. He throws INT's because he actually throws the ball 15+ yards downfield and isn't' afraid to trust his arm into tight windows. Matt Ryan had a ton of INT's too his last year in college and he's become an efficient "protector" of the football at the next level (career 2.3% INT). And that's comparing a SENIOR Ryan vs. a SOPHOMORE Winston.

Scouting Winston is easy on the field. He has it. He can play at the next level. And while the off-field issues are important, you have to cross the "can he play" bridge first. This isn't Russell or Leaf or George or Cutler. Winston has never had an issue being a leader between the lines. His teammates don't think he's an *******. If anything his persona is more comparable to Cam Newton who can rub people the wrong way but doesn't seem to have any real impact in the locker room or on the field.

Mariota is a completely different boat. There are PLENTY of questions about his game on film that might or might not translate to the NFL. He throws too many passes close to the line of scrimmage. His reads are quick, safe and have to be wide open to pull the trigger. There is very little timing in the route combinations. There is little to no 3-step or 5-step drops. He doesn't audible or use a hard count. He is rarely under center.

What he does exceptionally well is what Russell Wilson does well. He is a game manager that understands the threat of his running ability to generate open looks in the pass game. He can not 5-step drop and throw an NFL out route. He can do a 5 step drop, make a quick decisive decision about the primary or secondary play call (probably made pre-snap) and then improvise successful plays.

The issue I have is I still don't know how good Russell Wilson really is. We're talking about a guy who had almost ZERO completions in a whole half of the Super Bowl. Wilson can disappear at times when he makes consecutive, traditional throws from the pocket. I think Mariota will do the same thing. There will be times if the running game is struggling, if down and distance aren't fortunate and teams do a good job of containment that Mariota will do a traditional 5-step drop, throw the ball and it will look like ****. I mean shaking your head "What the hell was that???!!!" type moments. He might be too quick on the trigger. He might not look in time with his receivers. He might pull the ball down and run to no where.

All I see is Russell Wilson when I watch Mariota. And I would argue Wilson probably has the better, more natural over-the-top throwing motion that lends itself to better accuracy than Mariota.

The world is in love with Russell Wilson right now. But he's not exactly "typical", so expecting other non-typical guys to be him (even when they look like him on film) is a hard thing for me to bank on.

Or the guy before Winston ( E.J. Manuel who's an apparent bust in the NFL ) only threw 6. 4, 8 and 10 INT's in his 4 years of playing, while completing a higher percentage of his passes for his career by a small margin You can have a great arm, but if you average nearly 2 turnovers a game ( INT's + Fumbles = 20 in 13 games played ), your team is going to lose in the NFL more often than not. Winston is slow, and has small hands. This to me says he's going to be easy to sack and will fumble prone in the pocket.

I think Russell Wilson is a good Top 9-12 NFL QB, not a great one.
 
I give Del some credit when reading the QB's...


He had Teddy as the #1 QB on his board- while the two that went ahead:
One had a bijillion turnovers
The other was a recent resident of Cliffside Malibu Drug Rehab & Alcohol center

Hell, I am sure that the Skins/Jags/Browns would pay you 250k a year to simply evaluate QB's outta college.
 
So much depends on where Mariotta goes and how he is expected to play. Russel Wilson is in a perfect situation. What if Mariotta goes somewhere that expects him to start right away, win games with his arm and do it like a traditional, pro-style QB?
 
So much depends on where Mariotta goes and how he is expected to play. Russel Wilson is in a perfect situation. What if Mariotta goes somewhere that expects him to start right away, win games with his arm and do it like a traditional, pro-style QB?

I completely agree. If Mariotta goes to a team that either lets him sit for 2 years (because that is how long it is going to take) or to a team that lets him do what he did in college (Eagles) he will be fine. If he has to start right away or even soon, he is not an NFL QB.

However, IMO, there is no point putting him in a traditional offense. I would just run what he is used to and see where it goes. If a team could commit to that, he would be OK.
 
Or the guy before Winston ( E.J. Manuel who's an apparent bust in the NFL ) only threw 6. 4, 8 and 10 INT's in his 4 years of playing, while completing a higher percentage of his passes for his career by a small margin You can have a great arm, but if you average nearly 2 turnovers a game ( INT's + Fumbles = 20 in 13 games played ), your team is going to lose in the NFL more often than not. Winston is slow, and has small hands. This to me says he's going to be easy to sack and will fumble prone in the pocket.

I think Russell Wilson is a good Top 9-12 NFL QB, not a great one.

I agree with this. I don't care for Winston. Yes, some of his T.O. are because of the WRs. But he also has 100X more talent at WR than the DBs they are playing against. How man Ints. didn't get thrown because of his great WR talent against inferior Dbs? Winston has a strong arm and can move in the pocket. However, I don't like his decision making nor his ability to read a defense. He seems like a little brighter JaMarcus Russell to me.

I don't care for MM much either. I don't like this class of QBs much at all.
 
watching ESPN while at the gym - Merril compared Winston to Leftwich. He said if he were to draft an offensive player who could come in and help right away, he'd take Gurley. He sees Winston as a project. Merril said his pocket movement is going to effect him in the NFL - pointing to the Louisville and Notre Dame games as evidence.

Herman Edwards was baffled.

so obviously Merril is 100% correct.
 
What I really want to see is a scorecard of quotes from all these so-called experts about last year's prospects.

THAT's what I want to see. It's funny how a year later and all the quotes and quips and rankings and black/white statements sort of get "lost" by the media. It's an unwritten rule not to air each others stupid foot-in-mouth comments during draft season.
 


at least one man had the balls to say it on tv
 
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