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What to do with Hargrave

antdrewjosh

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http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...-javon-hargrave-becoming-handful-pass-rusher/

Meaning this kid needs to play. Its becoming harder to justify him coming off the field. If they are not going to have rotation with Tuitt and Heyward and Hargrave for the two DL in the 2-4-5 nickle they need to switch to a 3-3-5 and take off Williams. Hargrave has been the most consistent and best player on the defense IMO. He maybe the best pass rusher we have
 
http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...-javon-hargrave-becoming-handful-pass-rusher/

Meaning this kid needs to play. Its becoming harder to justify him coming off the field. If they are not going to have rotation with Tuitt and Heyward and Hargrave for the two DL in the 2-4-5 nickle they need to switch to a 3-3-5 and take off Williams. Hargrave has been the most consistent and best player on the defense IMO. He maybe the best pass rusher we have


Hargrave is not close to our best player on defense. He has but 5 tackles in three games, He is a decent pass rusher ( 2 sacks ), and all right run defender. I would say Heyward, Tuitt, Dupree, and Watt are better pass rushers. Few here would argue Hargrave is a better pass rusher than those four.

Heyward and Tuitt should always be on the field in any formation first unless they need a breather...

The 2-4-5 isn't a good formation for most downs and distances.

I like Hargrave as one of the men in the 4 man fronts for the 4-2-5 Nickle or 4-3-4

The problem the coaching staff might have is this. Big Dan and Vance Williams are good run defenders, but zeroes vs the pass.

Do you want a better pass rusher in Hargrave or would you rather have Shazier occupied by blockers less, allowing him to make more plays with Big Dan in there?

My short answer is if you've got 3 of your best 4 pass rushers playing, give me the run D and let Shazier do his thing. And limit Chickllo's run D snaps if it's that type of game and play Harrison a bit more.
 
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Hargrave is not close to our best player on defense. He has but 5 tackles in three games, He is a decent pass rusher ( 2 sacks ) , and all right run defender. I would say Heyward, Tuitt and Watt are better pass rushers. Heyward and Tuitt should always be on the field in any formation first unless they need a breather...

The 2-4-5 isn't a good formation for most downs and distances.

I like Hargrave as one of the men in the 4 man fronts for the 4-2-5 Nickle or 4-3

The problem the coaching staff might have is this. Big Dan and Williams are good run defenders, but zero's vs the pass. Do you want a better pass rusher in Hargrave or would you rather have Shazier occupied by blockers less, allowing him to make more plays with Big Dan in there?

He has graded out the best so far this year. Two sack and 8 pressures with less snaps
 
The small-school product already has two sacks in this early season, matching his total for the regular season during his rookie year. I don’t think anybody has improved more from last year to this year so far. Which makes it all the more perplexing why he had not seen the field more prior to Sunday. According to Pro Football Focus, he has the highest pass rush productivity among all interior defensive linemen who have played at least 25 percent of their team’s snaps with two sacks and eight hurries on 37 pass rushes.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2017/09/javon-hargrave-not-blame-poor-showing-run/
 
The small-school product already has two sacks in this early season, matching his total for the regular season during his rookie year. I don’t think anybody has improved more from last year to this year so far. Which makes it all the more perplexing why he had not seen the field more prior to Sunday. According to Pro Football Focus, he has the highest pass rush productivity among all interior defensive linemen who have played at least 25 percent of their team’s snaps with two sacks and eight hurries on 37 pass rushes.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2017/09/javon-hargrave-not-blame-poor-showing-run/


So do you agree with Pro football focus ratings? Hint-hint this is a trap question.

I think its safe to say he's not one of our best three pass rushers.

Are the coaching not using him correctly / playing him enough? Perhaps with Tuitt out, yes.
 
So do you agree with Pro football focus ratings? Hint-hint this is a trap question.

I think its safe to say he's not one of our best three pass rushers.

Are the coaching not using him correctly / playing him enough? Perhaps with Tuitt out, yes.

Do i agree with them? I only used this one because i cant find another article i read stating he graded out the best. Not sure who the grading was attributed to. When the play on the field backs it up it does make easier to. My eyes have shown me he has been very disruptive. More disruptive then anyone else thru three games..
 
he doesn't have to be a top pass rusher, he is good enough at both run defending and pass rushing. That versatility should keep him in most of the snaps through the game. 3 front men against 3 WR formations, take Vince out and be done with it, that allows Shazier, to cover while rushing with 4 to 5 guys.

Who's better rushing the passer? Vince or Javon? there's your answer
 
Hargrave is a beast, IMO he needs to be in the field as much as possible.
We need to get away from the 2-4-5 formation on D. It makes our front soft, Hargrave rarely if ever plays in that formation, and it leaves a liability in pass coverage (Williams) on the field.
On passing downs or vs very good passing teams I'd like to see 3-3-5. It gives us some beef up front, our two best pass rushers are on the field and it takes a pass cover liability off the field. If need be have a DB play kind of like the 2nd ILB like Troy use to. Hargrave on passing downs is a bull and collapses the middle of the pocket, which is what you need to do against top qbs

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Hargrave is a beast, IMO he needs to be in the field as much as possible.
We need to get away from the 2-4-5 formation on D. It makes our front soft, Hargrave rarely if ever plays in that formation, and it leaves a liability in pass coverage (Williams) on the field.
On passing downs or vs very good passing teams I'd like to see 3-3-5. It gives us some beef up front, our two best pass rushers are on the field and it takes a pass cover liability off the field. If need be have a DB play kind of like the 2nd ILB like Troy use to. Hargrave on passing downs is a bull and collapses the middle of the pocket, which is what you need to do against top qbs

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yeah, been advocating for it through all preseason.
 
I think it depends on if you are playing a strong running team or passing team. Regardless Hargrave is having a solid start to the season....
 
I think it depends on if you are playing a strong running team or passing team. Regardless Hargrave is having a solid start to the season....
I would classify the bears as a strong running team and no Hargrave on the goal line

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Hargrave is not close to our best player on defense. He has but 5 tackles in three games, He is a decent pass rusher ( 2 sacks ), and all right run defender. I would say Heyward, Tuitt, Dupree, and Watt are better pass rushers. Few here would argue Hargrave is a better pass rusher than those four.

My short answer is if you've got 3 of your best 4 pass rushers playing, give me the run D and let Shazier do his thing. And limit Chickllo's run D snaps if it's that type of game and play Harrison a bit more.


From a 3-4 defense standpoint.. He is. The fact that he isn't in there on many more plays than Heyward, he is. Dupree and Watt are better pass rushers?? WTF are you smoking? They are OLB's in a 3-4 Of COURSE THEY ARE.

Heyward is ok. He impressed me little vs. Bears.
 
All I'm saying their was a reason they didn't rush the middle on Sunday. Hargrave is a monster!! Typically DL who play his position do not get a ton of tackles. His position isn't based on tackles but pressure and holding the line. He is developing onto a monster and cant wait to see him continue to develop.
 
Having a NT that can get in the back field totally ***** up zone blocking/cut back runners, this was the exact game you want him in there

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Javon Hargrave Isn’t Playing Enough (And That’s A Big Problem)


BY ALEX KOZORA SEPTEMBER 27, 2017 AT 01:53 PM



The Pittsburgh Steelers are enjoying some of the best defensive line depth they’ve had in years. And it’s been tested and weathered after losing Stephon Tuitt on the second play of the season. But one of those pieces, a bonafide budding star, is too often helmet in hand on the sideline – Javon Hargrave. That’s a problem. And it’s got to change.

Through three weeks, Hargrave has played 86 of 195 total snaps, a touch more than 44%. That’s partially buoyed by how much base defense the Steelers played against the Chicago Bears and when the team is in their 3-4, Hargrave is usually the nose tackle. No shock there, he’s involved in 87% of snaps in base.

Sub-packages? That’s the issue.

For the year, Hargrave has logged just 22 plays, 18%, of nickel/dime snaps. Last week, that number dropped to just 9%, a whole two of them. That, despite Hargrave being the Steelers’ best pass rusher of the afternoon. He racked up an incredible four pressures on 13 pass rush chances, including one of his two in nickel. It’s even all the more impressive knowing Keith Butler blitzed just once Sunday and regularly sent three man rushes, a tactic he often uses against statues like Mike Glennon.

Simply put, Hargrave couldn’t be stopped. Doubled, triple-teamed, it didn’t matter. The only thing that slowed him down? How the Steelers used him and how they’ve used him throughout the season.




Last year, granted, the depth was a little worse, Hargrave played 45% of the sub-package snaps. That number has been cut by more than half even though Hargrave has only improved as a pass rusher. His run support hasn’t been a liability either; if anyone performed how they should versus Chicago, it was him. He missed just one tackle, per our Josh Carney, and it’s hard to think of a play where Hargrave struggled. If anything, he was a focal point for Chicago, regularly pulled, grabbed, and restrained as he flowed down the line.

You can only imagine how much smaller his sub-package role will become once Tuitt returns, presumably this weekend. In a way, it’s a good problem to have. No matter what, Tuitt and Cam Heyward will – and should – dominate those snaps. And Tyson Alualu has played well, too. But the Steelers must find a way to get 79 on the field. His seven pressures this season is tied for most on the team and he’s the runaway winner on a per-snap basis.

Hargrave has been a home run pick since the team took him. He became the starter in nanoseconds, tossing aside Daniel McCullers the way he does undersized centers, had the steadiest rookie campaign of the “Big Three” and has only taken off in his second year. He’s a budding star, a legitimate Pro Bowl talent, though a lack of name recognition will surely keep him out of Hawaii/Orlando/Portland, wherever the NFL decides to put the game next.

I think we all can see that. Except for the Steelers. That’s gotta change.
 
We should have a front 3 on every play. I have been saying this for 3 years now. The new "sub-package" football where we are the only team in the NFL to use 2 DL is complete BS. The league isn't going that way because it doesn't work. Heyward, Tuitt and Hargrave or their subs if they are injured should be on the field for every damn down. That is the base of your D. You do not have a base with only 2 DL.
 
From a 3-4 defense standpoint.. He is. The fact that he isn't in there on many more plays than Heyward, he is. Dupree and Watt are better pass rushers?? WTF are you smoking? They are OLB's in a 3-4 Of COURSE THEY ARE.

Heyward is ok. He impressed me little vs. Bears.

From a 3-4 defense, Heyward and Tuitt are better players vs the run or pass.

Hargave is decent, but let's not go overboard, and yes I do believe both Watt and Dupree will have more QB sacks than Hargrave, barring injuries.

Should Hargrave play more snaps? Yes. Another coaching issue.
 
Do i agree with them? I only used this one because i cant find another article i read stating he graded out the best. Not sure who the grading was attributed to. When the play on the field backs it up it does make easier to. My eyes have shown me he has been very disruptive. More disruptive then anyone else thru three games..

Glad to see you are using 3rd party data. I might do the same, so don't go crazy if I use Pro Football Focus to help illustrate one of my points in the future.

Hargrave is yet another fine draft pick from Colbert, who has rebuilt the defense with players like Heyward, Tuitt, Watt, Dupree, Shazier, and Burns. All hits for draft picks...Pro Football focus and pro football reference give these guys good grades, and I agree with them. In addition, Colbert finally used Free agency and trades to improve our Roster.

At this point, you probably expect me to go negative on a certain player that we have a difference of opinion on...you can look up his AV grade from Pro football Reference if you wish. They are free.
 
From a 3-4 defense, Heyward and Tuitt are better players vs the run or pass.

Hargave is decent, but let's not go overboard, and yes I do believe both Watt and Dupree will have more QB sacks than Hargrave, barring injuries.

Should Hargrave play more snaps? Yes. Another coaching issue.

Guess you would have to watch the games to see how disruptive he has been
 
From a 3-4 defense, Heyward and Tuitt are better players vs the run or pass.

They arent the Nose Tackle

Hargave is decent, but let's not go overboard, and yes I do believe both Watt and Dupree will have more QB sacks than Hargrave, barring injuries.

What ? Overboard.? You think Dupree and Watt will have more sacks than Hargrave? REALLLY ? Did you even read my post. Wtf

I dont know if you have a clue what you are responding to.
 
the 2-4-5 needs to be used less and mix in the 3-3-5 the one we had in 08
Run this
DE Heyward
DT Aluala
DE Tuitt
OLB Watt
MLB Shazier
OLB Dupree
CB Burns
CB Haden
Mitchell
Box Davis
CB Gay/Hilton
 
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the 2-4-5 needs to be used less and mix in the 3-3-5 the one we had in 08
Run this
DE Heyward
DT Aluala
DE Tuitt
OLB Watt
MLB Shazier
CB Burns
CB Haden
Mitchell
Box Davis
CB Gay/Hilton

you are missing a LB there, also where the hell is Hargrave?
 
I think everyone agrees the 2-4-5 is terrible. Nickel should be 4-2-5 or 3-3-5 and dime should be 3-2-6 or 4-1-6. I also don't understand the theory of not blitzing non - mobile qbs. I would think you would blitz them more because there is less of a chance of them escaping. Butler seems to like them to stand around and find the weak spot in the zone.
 
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