Rule Change

[Stryker]

Not sure what you are seeing in that GIF, but it clearly looks to me as though the Pats side of his helmet earholes the Miami player in pursuit. Its blindsided and therefore an illegal hit. Can anyone bring up the GIF of Rogers' block. Surely Coolie can. I think he has every play of Ayers dancing in his head. I also disagree (but am not rock solid sure) about Coolie's illegal blindside block assesment. That is still a Personal foul (assessed at 15 yards). My feeling is that a fair assessment should have been First Down achieved. Move it back 15 yards from point of foul and first and ten. You can't play around with live ball deadball fouls and make them suit your need. The block had zero to do with him achieving the first down, only to do with his advancement from that point. All other personal fouls are dead ball (though some like roughing the passer are automatic first downs). I really think you are getting two bites at the apple there.

I don't know if the helmet makes significant contact for the pats. The brunt of the impact, as it appears to me, looks like the front of the shoulder.

 

[CoolieMan]

The block wasn't needed at that point because it was already a first down.

Rogers was likely trying to spring Ayers for a bigger gain. He couldn't see the safely coming in behind him who forced Ayers out of bounds, but if the safety wasn't there, Rogers block would have allowed Ayers to either score or come very close to the end zone....

 

[SteelerSask2]

an Illegal blindside block is a personal foul, personal fouls are not necessarily dead ball fouls though. Dead ball fouls are after the whistle fouls. This was during the play, just like a personal foul for roughing the passer or face mask

That is simply incorrect. I've reffed a ton of football and that is not correct. Now there are certain differences between Canadian /American rules obviously. However the term deadball doesn't mean after the whistle. Deadball means the yardage gained will be applied and the penalty will be tacked on. This includes personal fouls and objectionable conducts. Live ball simply means you have choice of taking the yard gain or applying the penalty and replaying the down. Without that distinguished on a goal line play you could simply destroy the QB and have it not affect anything. Now it seems to me that the NFL has played around with things. For Example, third and forever, I go smash your QB apply the deadball foul, still fourth and less than forever. That is why they apply the automatic first down. I just really don't like the way this foul was applied. nothing he did changed the fact that it was a first down. I don't see how you can interpret it that way. You are simply taking a dead ball foul and applying live ball foul rules to it.

 

[CoolieMan]

That is simply incorrect. I've reffed a ton of football and that is not correct. Now there are certain differences between Canadian /American rules obviously. However the term deadball doesn't mean after the whistle. Deadball means the yardage gained will be applied and the penalty will be tacked on. This includes personal fouls and objectionable conducts. Live ball simply means you have choice of taking the yard gain or applying the penalty and replaying the down. Without that distinguished on a goal line play you could simply destroy the QB and have it not affect anything. Now it seems to me that the NFL has played around with things. For Example, third and forever, I go smash your QB apply the deadball foul, still fourth and less than forever. That is why they apply the automatic first down. I just really don't like the way this foul was applied. nothing he did changed the fact that it was a first down. I don't see how you can interpret it that way. You are simply taking a dead ball foul and applying live ball foul rules to it.

then why is there a specific section in the rules for Dead Ball fouls?

http://operations.nfl.com/media/1807/2015_nfl_rule_book_final.pdf


ARTICLE 9. DEAD BALL FOUL AND FOUL BETWEEN DOWNS. A Dead Ball Foul is a foul that occurs in the continuing
action after a down ends, or a taunting foul that occurs at any time. The penalty for a Dead Ball Foul is enforced from the
succeeding spot, and the down counts.
A Foul Between Downs is a foul that occurs after the end of the down and after any continuing action resulting from the down,
but prior to the next snap or free kick. The penalty for a Foul Between Downs is enforced from the succeeding spot, and the
down counts, but it cannot be combined with a Live Ball Foul or a Dead Ball Foul to create a Multiple or Double Foul. A Foul
Between Downs is always enforced separately from any other foul. A foul against an official, regardless of when it occurs, is
always treated as a Foul Between Downs. See 12-3-1-h-pen.
Exception: If there is a personal, unsportsmanlike conduct, or taunting foul by either team following the end of the second
or fourth periods, the penalty yardage will be enforced on the second-half kickoff or the kickoff in overtime, unless it is part
of a Double Foul (See Section 5).
Item 1. Dead Ball Foul by Team A. If there is a Dead Ball Foul by Team A after a down in which Team A has made a first
down, after enforcement of the penalty it will be first-and-10 for Team A. If there is a Foul Between Downs after a down in
which Team A has made a first down, after enforcement of the penalty it will be first-and-25 for Team A.
Item 2. Dead Ball Fouls by Both Teams. Dead Ball Fouls by both teams are offset at the succeeding spot, and the down
counts, but any disqualified player or players must be removed pursuant to Rule 5, Section 2, Article 7.
Item 3. Live Ball and Dead Ball Fouls. Live Ball Fouls and Dead Ball Fouls combine to create Double Fouls or Multiple Fouls,
and all customary rules for enforcement apply.
Exceptions:
(1) If there is a 5-yard vs. 15-yard Double Foul on the last play of a half, and the 15-yard penalty is for a Dead Ball,
personal, unsportsmanlike conduct, or taunting foul by either team, the penalty yardage will be enforced on the
second half kickoff or the kickoff to start overtime. There will be no extension of the period. See 14-5-1-Exc.
(2) If the scoring team commits a Dead Ball Foul after a score, and its opponent’s Live Ball Foul is not for
unsportsmanlike conduct or unnecessary roughness, the opponent’s foul is disregarded, the score counts, and the
offensive team’s Dead Ball Foul is enforced on the kickoff. If the opponent’s foul is for unsportsmanlike conduct or
unnecessary roughness, the score counts, and both fouls are enforced on the kickoff.
Notes:
(1) When a foul occurs simultaneously with the ball becoming dead, it is considered to be a Dead Ball Foul.
(2) The succeeding spot for a foul that occurs after a touchdown and before a whistle for a Try is the next kickoff.
(3) The time between downs includes the interval during all timeouts (includ

 

[mdk2]

The block wasn't needed at that point because it was already a first down.

You don't stop playing after you reach the first down marker.

 

[SteelerSask2]

B]Dead ball Fouls[/B]

Any penalty that is called or assessed after the whistle has been blown to declare the play dead. Dead ball fouls are assessed from the end of the play, rather from the previous line of scrimmage or spot of the foul. The most common dead ball fouls are unsportsmanlike conduct and unnecessary roughness, since they take place during post-play moments.

In my opinion, what you have here is a way to punitively deal with a penalty that until very lately (Heinz Ward Rule) was not a penalty at all. Rogers clearly got his head across the bow (it was not an illegal block in the traditional sense of the word). So they are in essence applying unnecessary roughness (Deadball foul) with live ball consequences. If unnecessary roughness was not a dead ball foul, I could in essence wait for you to false start or hold and then go in and blow up your QB and have the two penalties offset. However, live and dead ball penalties are applied differently. As near as I can tell the NFL has created a whole separate section of Hits to a Defenseless players that largely ignore live ball dead ball rules.

 

[CoolieMan]

here is the block

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/08/watch-eli-rogers-knocks-out-tony-lippetts-mouthguard/

 

[Steeltime]

The block wasn't needed at that point because it was already a first down.

The Steelers made it very clear that they needed to be the more physical team.

On every play.

They were, and they dominated.

Personally, I hope that physical play continues for the next 3 games.

 

[DBS1970]

The block wasn't needed at that point because it was already a first down.

You play to the whistle. That gets coached from Pop Warner on up.

 

[DBS1970]

here is the block

http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/08/watch-eli-rogers-knocks-out-tony-lippetts-mouthguard/

That looks clean to me. clearly on the front of Lippetts body and the initial impact is body to body, The helmets collide after the body contact.

 

[wig]

No. Eli needed to go a bit lower. I can see why they threw the flag. It sucks but I can see it.

If he doesn't make contact with the helmet to helmet then no flag gets thrown. Floyd doesn't (as I see it) make clear helmet to helmet contact and certainly you wouldn't see it that way at full speed.

Course Floyd was probably drunk when he hit Lippett. Did anyone get a BAC?

 

[SteelerSask2]

Well that ends that part of the discussion. Eli will be fined. Clearly. Didn't see that angle during the game. good call.

 

[Harry_BZAC]

In comparing the Pats block to Eli's, the Pats players legs end up in front of the guy. Eli's are behind the player. So with the the helmet to helmet contact and the mouthpiece flying out...it looks like the right call. Although right when it happened I thought it was legit and was pissed.