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Don't let winning mask an issue. "Bill Cowher"

Ike Kelly said:
Uh...Pop, 4 of those wins were during road to SB XL as a 6th seed wildcard.


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So what? Of Tomlin's 8 playoff wins all 8 were won with Ben. Of Tomlin's 8 playoff wins 3 came during the road to the SB.. so what? Tomlin has had 12 seasons with Ben.. Cowher only had 3. How else can you do it?
 
SteelerFan448 said:
Cowher went 1 and done in 2 of 10 playoff appearances. Tomlin has gone 1 and done in 4 of 8 playoff appearances.
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Again...in reference to Ben, Chin ran the table as a 6th seed. Had he didn’t, this board would have been/be just as critical.


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Ike Kelly said:
Again...in reference to Ben, Chin ran the table as a 6th seed. Had he didn’t, this board would have been/be just as critical.
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But he did, so there's no need to be critical and since we are only talking about Ben as the QB, Cowher won at least one playoff game in both postseason appearances with Ben as his QB. Tomlin failed to do that in 50 percent of his opportunities.
 
Ike Kelly said:
Again...in reference to Ben, Chin ran the table as a 6th seed. Had he didn’t, this board would have been/be just as critical.

Back then this board was calling for coach Bill's head all the time. There was major disappointments,season after season.

Like the big fish story ,his legend grows the longer he stays out of coaching. As much as I hate Gruden,he has the balls to come back and give it another whirl. The $$$$$$ he signed for didn't hurt either. Although I am sure if Bill wanted to coach again,a team would pay him a mint.

As it has been stated before.....Coach Bill was so concerned about his qb's play, that he wanted to draft Stacey Andrews,who the Eagles grabbed instead of Big Ben. Go Figure.

I do believe that Bill had much better control of the locker room,but I am getting old,can't remember all the controversy back in those days. The one difference I will say is the difference,of course of social media. It could have been just as ugly.
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Steelmann said:
Ike Kelly said:
Again...in reference to Ben, Chin ran the table as a 6th seed. Had he didn’t, this board would have been/be just as critical.

Back then this board was calling for coach Bill's head all the time. There was major disappointments,season after season.

Like the big fish story ,his legend grows the longer he stays out of coaching. As much as I hate Gruden,he has the balls to come back and give it another whirl. The $$$$$$ he signed for didn't hurt either. Although I am sure if Bill wanted to coach again,a team would pay him a mint.

As it has been stated before.....Coach Bill was so concerned about his qb's play, that he wanted to draft Stacey Andrews,who the Eagles grabbed instead of Big Ben. Go Figure.

I do believe that Bill had much better control of the locker room,but I am getting old,can't remember all the controversy back in those days. The one difference I will say is the difference,of course of social media. It could have been just as ugly.
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The Eagles didn't grab Andrews instead of Ben. Ben was taken 11th and the Eagles took Andrews at 16. Again, for the 130 millionth time... Cowher wanted Rivers. Once Rivers shot up the boards they were looking at other options. Ben was touted to go before we picked. There was discussions about all of the available picks. Nobody on this board knows who wanted who and when. We know Rooney wanted Ben. That's all we really know. We don't know if Colbert wanted Andrews or someone else. We don't know who else in the room wanted who. The myth is that Cowher wanted Andrews. But I've never seen anything backing that up from anyone that was there or that would know. There were several really good players on the board including Vilma, Evans, and Wilfork. The idea that only Cowher wanted Andrews and only Andrews would do is a total myth created by people that don't want to give Cowher any credit for Ben.
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SteelerFan448 said:
But he did, so there's no need to be critical and since we are only talking about Ben as the QB, Cowher won at least one playoff game in both postseason appearances with Ben as his QB. Tomlin failed to do that in 50 percent of his opportunities.
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This can go ad Infinitim....and I’m not knocking Chin. Great coach. Epitomized Pittsburgh perfectly. Loved him here, when he retired, he knew he needed time away.

My whole point was in reference to the 5-1 playoff record his last three years, which was the first 3 years Cowher had Ben. End result, One championship, one early playoff exit and one non-playoff season. Tomlin first 3 years with Ben...3-1 W/L record. One championship, one early playoff exit and one non playoff season. Pretty comparable between the two. Prior to 2004, Cowher has a 7-8 playoff record. Tomlin after 2009, 5-6 playoff record. Again pretty comparable.

Sure Tomlin should have been more successful with Ben, but the same argument could be had that Cowher should have been more successful with Bettis. After all Cowher’s team proliferated the run first offense.

You can debate this forever, but point being both coaches have been good to the franchise, both have their flaws and both have brought championships.


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Vader said:
Steelmann said:
The Eagles didn't grab Andrews instead of Ben. Ben was taken 11th and the Eagles took Andrews at 16. Again, for the 130 millionth time... Cowher wanted Rivers. Once Rivers shot up the boards they were looking at other options. Ben was touted to go before we picked. There was discussions about all of the available picks. Nobody on this board knows who wanted who and when. We know Rooney wanted Ben. That's all we really know. We don't know if Colbert wanted Andrews or someone else. We don't know who else in the room wanted who. The myth is that Cowher wanted Andrews. But I've never seen anything backing that up from anyone that was there or that would know. There were several really good players on the board including Vilma, Evans, and Wilfork. The idea that only Cowher wanted Andrews and only Andrews would do is a total myth created by people that don't want to give Cowher any credit for Ben.
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Vader is spot on here. Cowher wanted Rivers. Had inside info from NC State coaches and knew Rivers dad. Was hoping he would fall low enough. When he went so early, they were concentrating on OL or DL/LB. Andrews was top on their board as was Vilma as the future replacement for Potsie. PG, Trib and DK all had said Chin and KC were deliberating on OL or defense after Rivers was picked. Andrews had a sinus condition identified during the combine...so that was their discussion. After Ben started falling Dan Rooney then directed the discussion about QB with Ben being available.


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Ike Kelly said:
My whole point was in reference to the 5-1 playoff record his last three years, which was the first 3 years Cowher had Ben. End result, One championship, one early playoff exit and one non-playoff season. Tomlin first 3 years with Ben...3-1 W/L record. One championship, one early playoff exit and one non playoff season. Pretty comparable between the two. Prior to 2004, Cowher has a 7-8 playoff record. Tomlin after 2009, 5-6 playoff record. Again pretty comparable.
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Cowher never had an early playoff exit with Ben. He made it to the AFC Championship his rookie season, won the Super Bowl in his second, and missed the playoffs his third, which happened to coincide with a motorcycle wreck and appendectomy surgery. Again, Cowher rarely went one and done in the playoffs, something Tomlin does half of the time (three of which came at home) with Roethlisberger for all of those games. Cowher reached 6 AFC Championship games. Tomlin has to make it the next three years just to match.


Sure Tomlin should have been more successful with Ben, but the same argument could be had that Cowher should have been more successful with Bettis. After all Cowher’s team proliferated the run first offense.
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Surely you aren't comparing the success rate of having a HOF QB to having a HOF RB because that's ludicrous.
 
Don't let winning mask an issue. "Bill Cowher"

SteelerFan448 said:
Cowher never had an early playoff exit with Ben. He made it to the AFC Championship his rookie season, won the Super Bowl in his second, and missed the playoffs his third, which happened to coincide with a motorcycle wreck and appendectomy surgery. Again, Cowher rarely went one and done in the playoffs, something Tomlin does half of the time (three of which came at home) with Roethlisberger for all of those games. Cowher reached 6 AFC Championship games. Tomlin has to make it the next three years just to match.




Surely you aren't comparing the success rate of having a HOF QB to having a HOF RB because that's ludicrous.
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Never said Cowher had an early playoff loss with Ben, he went 1-1 in Ben’s rook year. Lost to the cheats, with stolen signals most likely.

Ben’s motorcycle and appendectomy attributed to missing the playoffs? His motorcycle accident, while severe and life threatening, occurred earlier in the year. He recovered enough to be ready to play by preseason. His appendectomy occurred during the preseason, and he only missed the first regular season game (which Pitt won with Batch), he played in the second. Doubtful to blame that season solely on Ben.

And for the record, Chin went one and done in his first two playoff appearances. Tomlin 4 times.

It’s only ludicrous because of perception. Was the QB the feature of Cowher’s offense during the pre-Ben years? Nope.


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Cope said:
I didn't make a reference to built vs inherited. Just stating D won superbowls back then Dallas' D was fantastic, as was the Giants, and Redskins back then HOFers all over those rosters. I'm not saying Tomlin is better than Cowher, I'm saying they BOTH underachieved. Top 2 in the AFC 5 years and only made it to 1 SB. That's underachieving.

And Aikman may be a HOFer, but without the #1 RB all time & Larry Brown (ugh), he doesn't win those SBs. Currently He's #38 all time in passing. Behind Simms at #35. Those teams won with D and Running games.
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Actually, the season the Cowboys beat the Steelers (1995), they had the #9 ranked defense. Hardly fantastic, and in fact, 3 spots below Richie Kotite and the 3-13 New York Football Jets, who had the #6 D that year.
 
Ike Kelly said:
It’s only ludicrous because of perception. Was the QB the feature of Cowher’s offense during the pre-Ben years? Nope.


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What does "featured" mean? So O'Donnell passes 42 times against KC in his first ever playoff game he isn't "featuring" the QB? How about when he passes 54 times against SD the next year? Still not "featuring" the QB either? Then the next year he passes 35 against Buffalo, 41 times against Indy and 49 times against Dallas when Aikman only throws 23 passes. I guess they didn't "Feature" the QB then either? It's ridiculous.
 
Ike Kelly said:
Never said Cowher had an early playoff loss with Ben, he went 1-1 in Ben’s rook year. Lost to the cheats, with stolen signals most likely.

Ben’s motorcycle and appendectomy attributed to missing the playoffs? His motorcycle accident, while severe and life threatening, occurred earlier in the year. He recovered enough to be ready to play by preseason. His appendectomy occurred during the preseason, and he only missed the first regular season game (which Pitt won with Batch), he played in the second. Doubtful to blame that season solely on Ben.

And for the record, Chin went one and done in his first two playoff appearances. Tomlin 4 times.

It’s only ludicrous because of perception. Was the QB the feature of Cowher’s offense during the pre-Ben years? Nope.


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Ben's 2006 season, he also suffered that concussion against the falcons
 
Ike Kelly said:
Doubtful to blame that season solely on Ben.
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In 2006, Ben had career lows in completion percentage, touchdown percentage, and quarterback rating. He also had a career high in interceptions and was sacked 46 times, tied for third most in his career. Not the sole blame, but when your quarterback is in the bottom half of the league in each of those categories, including dead last in interceptions, an 8-8 record doesn't look so bad.
 
Vader said:
What does "featured" mean? So O'Donnell passes 42 times against KC in his first ever playoff game he isn't "featuring" the QB? How about when he passes 54 times against SD the next year? Still not "featuring" the QB either? Then the next year he passes 35 against Buffalo, 41 times against Indy and 49 times against Dallas when Aikman only throws 23 passes. I guess they didn't "Feature" the QB then either? It's ridiculous.
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Vader, not trying to be argumentative. Cowher’s game plan was always run the ball to set up any passing and play good/great defense. Continuation of Marty ball, which worked in the regular season and secured playoff spots. But in the playoffs, the philosophy changed. It had to. Better opponents required more passing From NOD, even though the running game was above par. You couldn’t sit on leads and run the ball, because of the better defenses.

When Ben came along, still had superb rushing attack, but with Ben there was a better QB to complement or balance the offense. Less predictable. Which allowed the playoff runs in 2004/2005.


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Don't let winning mask an issue. "Bill Cowher"

SteelerFan448 said:
In 2006, Ben had career lows in completion percentage, touchdown percentage, and quarterback rating. He also had a career high in interceptions and was sacked 46 times, tied for third most in his career. Not the sole blame, but when your quarterback is in the bottom half of the league in each of those categories, including dead last in interceptions, an 8-8 record doesn't look so bad.
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46 sacks 448. That stat tells you right there the cause of Ben’s poor season. He still had 3500+ yds passing. Parker has 1500 yards rushing, I don’t think Hines or Santonio had 1000 yards either. But besides Ben’s 23 picks, there were 27 team fumbles. 50 turnovers. So the combination of those two numbers (sacks and TOs) was indicative of his less than stellar season. If his spring or summer accident and health issues were to be blamed, then he should have been either PUPped or shut down for the season. Obviously, the medical staff didn’t think so.


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Ike Kelly said:
Vader, not trying to be argumentative. Cowher’s game plan was always run the ball to set up any passing and play good/great defense. Continuation of Marty ball, which worked in the regular season and secured playoff spots. But in the playoffs, the philosophy changed. It had to. Better opponents required more passing From NOD, even though the running game was above par. You couldn’t sit on leads and run the ball, because of the better defenses.

When Ben came along, still had superb rushing attack, but with Ben there was a better QB to complement or balance the offense. Less predictable. Which allowed the playoff runs in 2004/2005.


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Again what is "featured"? You can't give a concrete answer for what "featured" is because you and everyone knows that O'Donnell threw the ball a lot during the regular season. He averaged passing the ball 31 times a game. In Ben's first 5 years he averaged 27 passes a game. Kordell was almost exactly the same as Ben in his 5 years starting. So please stop with this non-sense.

BTW if one of our starting WRs doesn't get hurt in the SB that route is run correctly and O'Donnell doesn't throw that last Int. Fact is Cowher won even though he was constantly having to re-work the offense and defense because of FA. He did the best he could with what he had.
 
mightyguru said:
I would take Captain Caveman over Cool Shades anytime.
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I think Cowher had as many defensive draft busts in his career as Shades averages in one season.
 
Ike Kelly said:
46 sacks 448. That stat tells you right there the cause of Ben’s poor season.
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I strongly disagree.
2007: Sacked 47 times. Had 32 touchdowns, 11 interceptions, and was second in the league in quarterback rating at 104.1, the highest of his career.
2008: Sacked 46 times. Poor statistical season, but only 15 interceptions compared to 23 in 2006. Also had four 4QC compared to only two in 2006.
2009: Sacked 50 times. Had a QB rating of over 100.

Where'd you get the fumble stat from? ESPN has the 2006 Steelers with 11 of 27 fumbles lost, 34 turnovers (Steelers defense had 20 interceptions and 9 fumbles recovered). By comparison, the 2008 team Ben threw 15 interceptions and the team had 26 fumbles with 9 lost, 24 turnovers (Steelers defense had 20 interceptions and 7 fumbles recovered).

I still believe Ben's injury played a major role in their failure in 2006. The Steelers started the season 1-6 and Roethlisberger had a 1:2 TD to INT to TD ratio (14 interceptions through 7 games)--this includes no touchdowns and seven interceptions through three weeks. Over the course of the season, the Steelers went 1-7 when he had more interceptions than touchdowns--with two of those losses being one possession games.

For comparison sake, the 2008 Steelers went 12-4 and won the title. He was sacked more times than in 2006, but he did a better job of protecting the ball. The Steelers were 2-3 (including a meaningless season finale win over the Browns) when he had more interceptions than touchdowns. His performance was particularly evident in one possession games, in which the Steelers went 6-2. In the six wins, 7 touchdowns and only 2 interceptions. In the two losses, 1 touchdown and 7 interceptions.

Roethlisberger is the most important player on the team and when he performs well, the team usually wins. When he's bad, he can be real bad and it's often too much to overcome. Given his numbers at the start of the 2006 season and that it was the worst of his career, you start to look outside factors that influenced his performance and two significant health issues can't be ignored.
 
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