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Buckeye,
At this point there is so much chaff being thrown in the air, I wouldn't be surprised if KC grabbed one of those Top 15-20 OL if they fell to 28.
With the draft approaching, who really makes the most sense in round 1?
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Buckeye,
At this point there is so much chaff being thrown in the air, I wouldn't be surprised if KC grabbed one of those Top 15-20 OL if they fell to 28.
not from what I saw
He doesn't shed blocks well, backtracks on plays as if he doesn't trust his burst. And by the tapes I don't trust it either.
Of all the prospects I watched, the more and more I watched the less and less I liked due to question marks.
Like I see questionable instincts. Perhaps too tall and light in the pants for a ILber.
And it isn't just that there is competition concerns. It is that I see these problems against lesser competition.
danger danger
(robot arms flailing)
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Not sold at 1.28 on either of them; I'm still pounding the table calling for Reid (a proven, solid player all around) if no talent (like Landry, vea or Payne or any other one labeled as early 1st) falls to us, of course is they don't trade. I'd rather they trade and still get Reid and someone else
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Reid checks off a lot of boxes, a lot.
I know Sup doesn't like him for his brother, but I am sure they have that figured out if they thought that would be a distraction or not.
Perhaps he can keep his agenda off the field if he even has one.
But I like Reid the player. Close on him and Bates (2nd round possibility) as a FS. But I think Reid is a better tackler and has a lower bust percentage.
Payne ugh there is a nice dream. No way this guy should be there. I do like him though.
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For the record, I think Mayock has an excellent track record of evaluating in his top 5's at most positions (some better than others) and I think if you aren't an idiot, you can clearly see that his top 5's almost never get picked in the first 2 rounds. He doesn't evaluate projected rounds, just potential talent at the position.
Now, while I love Slashsteel (thank you for your service), your posts (mostly), and your Avatar (the mostest), I do think you were way too hard on another good poster (SteelerSask). I mean, you do realize that you threw out a presumptive post with a comparison to another poster which MOST here would consider a HUGE insult. You have to remember, we don't know **** about one another, other than we are all Steeler fans. You don't know IF someone has watched all the tape there is on a player (not that it matters IF you don't know what to look for). All this being said, the debate about LVE or Evans IMO, is moot. Neither are sure thing ILB prospects. They may very well go in the 2nd or 3rd round (which is where they would go IF the ILB prospects were even average this year,IMO).
Colbert has already said he's not impressed with the talent offered at ILB in this draft. Let's look at the first 5 taken last year:
Hassan Reddick - Rnd 1, Pick 13 - 72 tackles in rookie year - Mayock's #2 ILB
Jarrad Davis - Rnd 1, Pick 21 - 96 tackles - Mayock's #4
Reuben Foster - Rnd 1, Pick 31 - 72 tackles - Mayock's #1
Zach Cunningham - Rnd 2, Pick 57 overall - 96 tackles - Mayock's #3
Alex Anzelone - Rnd 3, Pick 76 - 16 tackles before IR'd - Mayock's #5
The year before:
Darren Lee - Rnd 1, Pick 20 - 94 tackles in 2017 - Mayock's #3
Myles Jack - Rnd 2, Pick 36 - 90 tackles in 2017 - Mayock's #1
Reggie Ragland - Rnd 2, Pick 41 - 44 tackles - Mayock's #2
Deion Jones - Rnd 2, Pick 52 - 138 tackles - Mayock's #5
Su'a Cravens - Rnd 2, Pick 53 - 34 tackles - Mayock's #4
I threw the Tackle stat in just a a point of reference to gauge impact (it's obviously not the end all, be all). In each case, Mayock did pick the first 5 ILBs off the board...just not the order. A lot of this has to do with team use and "fit".
Now, I would argue that Rashaan Evans, while a decent athlete, would definitely grade out BEHIND Foster and Ragland as he was the back-up for each at Bama and had less production than either as a starter. He started at the WILB or Will LB spot in his ONLY year as a full-time starter. In previous years, he got time behind Tim Williams (Rnd 3, Pick 78) on the outside and some time at MILB behind Shaun Dion Hamilton because of injuries. While he has shown versatility in his position flexibility, he is NO CJ Mosley, who also was a WILB at Bama...not even close. He SHOULD be a late 2nd round, early to mid 3rd rounder based on what he did at Bama compared to others in the same position over the years who he could not get in front of, IMO.
Ok, let's look at LVE. While he loads the stat sheets, his tape shows that for whatever reason, he is not a "downhill" style LB. He either doesn't trust what he sees, doesn't process well OR was coached to not let anything get behind him. He has the body, speed and burst to become a downhill fast pursuit ILB but even when he pulls the trigger, he often whiffs because he's out of balance/control. He is, IMO, a projection, not a replacement for Shazier. IF he goes in the 1st round, it will be because of need, not value, IMO. There are better non-projection, downhill style ILBs in this draft, they just aren't as fast/quick as Shazier. That doesn't mean we won't find a player who will be able to take over the "Mack" for us, they just won't be asked to do the same things as Shazier. Remember, Shaz is not a perfect "Mack" for us either, IMO. He is just different because of his speed and explosion. He misses a lot of tackles because of his explosiveness too. Bostic, IF he can stay healthy, might even be a better Mack than Shazier, albeit NOT nearly as dynamic. Neither of our ILBs are top-tier,IMO. Williams is just average and Shazier, while dynamic as hell, is not great in run-support (often over-runs) but above average in coverage.
The team had me thinking when they made a play for Donta Hightower that they are looking for an upgrade at the Buck over Williams. If that is the case, I could see them take a guy like Christian Sam or Genard Avery later in the draft. Both might be an upgrade eventually over Williams. As for finding an ideal fit for the Mack, I could see them going later with a smaller, faster LB like Burks (who played safety also, and might fit as a 3rd down option for an extra hybrid LB or even a big Safety like Terrell Edmunds could fit that role.
As far as finding a replacement for Shazier, I don't see one. I think they would be looking for a possible upgrade for Spence at the position in case Bostic gets hurt or can't hack it. In this case, looking at LVE (later than 1st Rnd), Josh Sweat (as a tribute pick to Timmons, played OLB but ended up as a better ILB), or even Fred Warner, Burks or Cichy might all offer more than Spence with speed and coverage ability. Again, a big safety could be the guy too. Look at the production Atlanta is getting out of Deion Jones. He was considered a tweener at under 6'-1" and 222#. He had 138 tackles last year as a MILB. That's getting into Ray Lewis' fantasy stats.
I was wrong last year when I really didn't see the ability in Takk McKinley as a pass rusher. I wanted Watt all along before McKinley and Takk went first. He turned out to be very efficient as a rush specialist but not a tackle stat guy with only 15 tackles in limited time. I looked at his tape extensively and didn't see the explosion he put on the field in 2017. He looked like a monster going through LTs and TEs alike. I didn't see it.
I see a lot of 1st round talent being at #28. I just don't see the talent at the position(s) we need it most. Maybe Tombert saw this too and decided picking up some insurance was in order. Now, we have some flexibility. If a guy like Payne is there, we can feel good sprinting to the podium to get him.
Now, while I love Slashsteel (thank you for your service), your posts (mostly), and your Avatar (the mostest), I do think you were way too hard on another good poster (SteelerSask). I mean, you do realize that you threw out a presumptive post with a comparison to another poster which MOST here would consider a HUGE insult. You have to remember, we don't know **** about one another, other than we are all Steeler fans. You don't know IF someone has watched all the tape there is on a player (not that it matters IF you don't know what to look for). All this being said, the debate about LVE or Evans IMO, is moot. Neither are sure thing ILB prospects. They may very well go in the 2nd or 3rd round (which is where they would go IF the ILB prospects were even average this year,IMO).
Colbert has already said he's not impressed with the talent offered at ILB in this draft. Let's look at the first 5 taken last year:
Hassan Reddick - Rnd 1, Pick 13 - 72 tackles in rookie year - Mayock's #2 ILB
Jarrad Davis - Rnd 1, Pick 21 - 96 tackles - Mayock's #4
Reuben Foster - Rnd 1, Pick 31 - 72 tackles - Mayock's #1
Zach Cunningham - Rnd 2, Pick 57 overall - 96 tackles - Mayock's #3
Alex Anzelone - Rnd 3, Pick 76 - 16 tackles before IR'd - Mayock's #5
The year before:
Darren Lee - Rnd 1, Pick 20 - 94 tackles in 2017 - Mayock's #3
Myles Jack - Rnd 2, Pick 36 - 90 tackles in 2017 - Mayock's #1
Reggie Ragland - Rnd 2, Pick 41 - 44 tackles - Mayock's #2
Deion Jones - Rnd 2, Pick 52 - 138 tackles - Mayock's #5
Su'a Cravens - Rnd 2, Pick 53 - 34 tackles - Mayock's #4
I threw the Tackle stat in just a a point of reference to gauge impact (it's obviously not the end all, be all). In each case, Mayock did pick the first 5 ILBs off the board...just not the order. A lot of this has to do with team use and "fit".
Now, I would argue that Rashaan Evans, while a decent athlete, would definitely grade out BEHIND Foster and Ragland as he was the back-up for each at Bama and had less production than either as a starter. He started at the WILB or Will LB spot in his ONLY year as a full-time starter. In previous years, he got time behind Tim Williams (Rnd 3, Pick 78) on the outside and some time at MILB behind Shaun Dion Hamilton because of injuries. While he has shown versatility in his position flexibility, he is NO CJ Mosley, who also was a WILB at Bama...not even close. He SHOULD be a late 2nd round, early to mid 3rd rounder based on what he did at Bama compared to others in the same position over the years who he could not get in front of, IMO.
Ok, let's look at LVE. While he loads the stat sheets, his tape shows that for whatever reason, he is not a "downhill" style LB. He either doesn't trust what he sees, doesn't process well OR was coached to not let anything get behind him. He has the body, speed and burst to become a downhill fast pursuit ILB but even when he pulls the trigger, he often whiffs because he's out of balance/control. He is, IMO, a projection, not a replacement for Shazier. IF he goes in the 1st round, it will be because of need, not value, IMO. There are better non-projection, downhill style ILBs in this draft, they just aren't as fast/quick as Shazier. That doesn't mean we won't find a player who will be able to take over the "Mack" for us, they just won't be asked to do the same things as Shazier. Remember, Shaz is not a perfect "Mack" for us either, IMO. He is just different because of his speed and explosion. He misses a lot of tackles because of his explosiveness too. Bostic, IF he can stay healthy, might even be a better Mack than Shazier, albeit NOT nearly as dynamic. Neither of our ILBs are top-tier,IMO. Williams is just average and Shazier, while dynamic as hell, is not great in run-support (often over-runs) but above average in coverage.
The team had me thinking when they made a play for Donta Hightower that they are looking for an upgrade at the Buck over Williams. If that is the case, I could see them take a guy like Christian Sam or Genard Avery later in the draft. Both might be an upgrade eventually over Williams. As for finding an ideal fit for the Mack, I could see them going later with a smaller, faster LB like Burks (who played safety also, and might fit as a 3rd down option for an extra hybrid LB or even a big Safety like Terrell Edmunds could fit that role.
As far as finding a replacement for Shazier, I don't see one. I think they would be looking for a possible upgrade for Spence at the position in case Bostic gets hurt or can't hack it. In this case, looking at LVE (later than 1st Rnd), Josh Sweat (as a tribute pick to Timmons, played OLB but ended up as a better ILB), or even Fred Warner, Burks or Cichy might all offer more than Spence with speed and coverage ability. Again, a big safety could be the guy too. Look at the production Atlanta is getting out of Deion Jones. He was considered a tweener at under 6'-1" and 222#. He had 138 tackles last year as a MILB. That's getting into Ray Lewis' fantasy stats.
I was wrong last year when I really didn't see the ability in Takk McKinley as a pass rusher. I wanted Watt all along before McKinley and Takk went first. He turned out to be very efficient as a rush specialist but not a tackle stat guy with only 15 tackles in limited time. I looked at his tape extensively and didn't see the explosion he put on the field in 2017. He looked like a monster going through LTs and TEs alike. I didn't see it.
I see a lot of 1st round talent being at #28. I just don't see the talent at the position(s) we need it most. Maybe Tombert saw this too and decided picking up some insurance was in order. Now, we have some flexibility. If a guy like Payne is there, we can feel good sprinting to the podium to get him.
I ramped it up after he started throwing insults. But it wasn't that he needed to watch all the tape on said player. It is that he watched none of it.
And while coach is a hard comparison pill to swallow, that is exactly what coach does evals without watching a player.
And I know Mayock is more of a positional analysis, and is one of the better ones in comparison. But his Steeler mock prediction track record sucks.
I was simply just pointing that out.And I think we both moved on from that convo.
Sorry for the coach comparison, if that makes anyone feel better.
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Yes Evans is a question mark, one that has a few more than I also like for a first rounder. I do like his production in big games. One positive for him. But yes he is a borderline first rounder. I wouldn't be so harsh to call him a third rounder. But we are talking one round here, no huge stretch.I prefer safer prospects. For me as I mentioned before, I would have liked to see more pro day work outs from him. He must still not be 100% from that groin.
And yes you can see why Colbert made that ILB comment. Even R.Smith I hear has a injury that could drop him.
Payne doesn't fit a high need but yeah, a solid talent. Just a small probability of falling that far.
As far as need sitting there, if you go over and over prospect vs who should be there. To me it looks like S. and to a lesser degree WR and RB.
Next year we might not think RB and WR is a lesser need. Something to keep in mind when those BPA's come off the Steelers board.
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I ramped it up after he started throwing insults. But it wasn't that he needed to watch all the tape on said player. It is that he watched none of it.
And while coach is a hard comparison pill to swallow, that is exactly what coach does evals without watching a player.
And I know Mayock is more of a positional analysis, and is one of the better ones in comparison. But his Steeler mock prediction track record sucks.
I was simply just pointing that out.And I think we both moved on from that convo.
Sorry for the coach comparison, if that makes anyone feel better.
Slash, IS there any prognosticator that HAS a good mock record? LOL!
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probably not good point
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Someone is bound to fall but I doubt that they will be an ILB. The Steelers may be looking at a BPA, which could well be an OT. Since what is likely to be available will either be injured with a first round grade, lack passion for the game or have off field red flags. I am kind of partial to Mason Rudolph, Ronald Jones II or Jessie Bates III, if available, at 28
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Evans or any of the other ILBers mentioned just doesn’t look to have 5he speed you need right now in the nfl to really make a difference. Teams get you in a pass defense then run on you or visa versa, you really have to be able to play all three downs. I would rather we take a guy l8ke Leon Jacobs 6-3 230 4.4 in lower rds and give him a year on special teams and film room work rather than take a guy that’s going to flunk out... there’s a fine l8ne between being fast enough for pass downs and being too light in the pants for run downs. Jacobs looks like a real bargain and on a team like the Steelers could really blossom. Sorry but I just think a pick on an inside guy in the first would be wasted pick another Jones.
It isn't proven Evans is slow or can't run all three downs. He was working his way back from injury and didn't perform some tests. That doesn't make him slow.
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Some top players have run campus combines timed by a 3rd party the year before. Has Evans?
I kinda figure you might have missed the questions I posited to you earlier in this thread. So, I quoted them for you. Again, not busting your balls, but considering you've been kinda pimping a possible LVE pick, I'd like your opinion on these.
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Still suffering from that to the point he can't run is troublesome to me.
I have the same issues with LVE that you do, though. I suppose that we use LVE as strictly a coverage type LB, may work better than having him nearer the line where his seeming inability to shed blocks is less exposed. Give him a year to increase his strength and learn from Shaz.
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Evans is right on the bubble because of his speed he’s falling and this nothing new for the Steelers... we are always at the end of the rd looking at guys that have fallen for what ever reason. And that’s the real question with Evansis it injurys or is he puffed up for his size and it’s slowed him down... is he another Jones? Do we roll the dice and gamble... I got to believe tolbert will have answered those questions, if they draft him I’m behind the pick but... they have swung and missed before.
Oh I agree both have issues. And Evans I want only in a nothing else is there scenario in 1. Which I don't see as the case.
rather see a S picked or a trade down.... unless someone falls of course...
it is what it is at this point. Evans is a late 1st or early-mid 2nd.
all because he hasn't ran.
makes me question if he even believes in himself. if he did, he'd trot out and run a 40.
it was estimated last season that the 28 pick got a $10mil contract with $5 mil in bonus.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonb...round-rookie-salary-projections/#367a4b166f04
you can see how the money drops from there.
This year's pick will make about the same in contract and signing bonus.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/draft/
There's a $2 mil difference between being drafted 32nd and 33rd, though. And even more after that.
So why doesn't Evans run? he's either costing himself a lot of money by not running, or hoping that a team will gamble on him in the 1st.
all because he hasn't ran.
makes me question if he even believes in himself. if he did, he'd trot out and run a 40.
it was estimated last season that the 28 pick got a $10mil contract with $5 mil in bonus.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonb...round-rookie-salary-projections/#367a4b166f04
you can see how the money drops from there.
This year's pick will make about the same in contract and signing bonus.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/draft/
There's a $2 mil difference between being drafted 32nd and 33rd, though. And even more after that.
So why doesn't Evans run? he's either costing himself a lot of money by not running, or hoping that a team will gamble on him in the 1st.
According to the Auburn native’s profile on 247 Sports, his 40-yard dash time is in the 4.51 area
Is that accurate? who knows
Interesting the Steelers hasn't had him in for a visit lately.
Who knows maybe they dont even have a ILBer on their board from round one.
I would pay to see that board!
LOL
What exactly are you saying???
ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??? Show me why you think this is a valid statement. Evans did not run the 40 - so? His tape PROVES he is the truth at his position and, IMO, he's just as good as Roquan Smith...time will tell but to say he's a 3rd rounder - somebody send that man a stiff drink!!!
I am sure Tomlin and.Colbert got a lot of information about Evans from Karl Dunbar. If Evans is available when the Steelers are picking, I am fine with them picking or passing on Evans because they should have enough information on him to make the right decision.
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Question: On the tape(s) Slash shared, I see LVE hopping around, moving side to side before finally diagnosing the play. Don't you think he'd be better able to make plays that he has to hunt (i.e. those that flow away from him) without all the wasted movement? (Bonus: Does the unnecessary hopping/shuffling indicate a "low football" IQ or just lack of experience?)
My Answer: LVE has a good feel for the game and is smart. How else could he make the amount of play's he did? This will only get better with experience
Question: LVE seems to get "caught in the wash" at times ... are you in the least bit concerned about his ability to shed blocks?
My Answer: He gained weight and has long arms so with coaching and repetition, he should be all right here. He can also run around blockers. A minor concern for now, but he has the upside to correct it. This is a down one and 2nd and short , and screen pass play type of concern only. The NFL doesn't pound it as much between the tackles like they used to.
If we had a better Nose Tackles, it would help keep our ILB's cleaner. Hopefully, this too will be addressed ]n the draft.
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I dont think LVE has enough burst to gain any more weight and risk being even slower.
Coaching and repetition doesn't always turn a soft player into a monster.
To transform Jane into Tarzan, which is what I think you are asking of this prospect.
This is one player I feel is going to be exposed against stronger competition.
And it won't be pretty.
Coaching and repetition doesn't always turn a soft player into a monster.
To transform Jane into Tarzan, which is what I think you are asking of this prospect.
This is one player I feel is going to be exposed against stronger competition.
And it won't be pretty.
Oh and I also read one team took LVE completely off their board due to a medical concern. I saw this on one of your favorite sites to evaluate players corch, Walter Football.
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If Colbert & Tomlin (and Butler) convince themselves they need to fix the defense by strengthened the interior of the line, it wouldn't shock me if they picked someone like Tim Settle NT at #28. That is of course if guys like Vita Vea and Payne are off the board. The reason I keep coming back to Settle, is he fits the profile, extremely young at 20 years old, and uniquely athletic for a 300+ guy. I'm not saying that's who I'd like to see in the first round, but it wouldn't surprise me. Then they go after a safety and LB rounds 2-3 or even a bit later.
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