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This should finally end this debate...

NO ONE is disputing it is harder to get 3-4 LBs than it was before, we all agree it is harder. However, draftin g a small, slow, weak OLB like Jarvis in the 1st round has nothing to do with that argument. He was a 5th round talent when better, stronger, faster and more talented OLBs were drafted much later, see Jamie Collins etc. We wasted a #1 pick on a bad player and as a result will now be drafting a LB #1 for the 3rd straight year as a result. You can tell us all how good Jarvis is but we all know from watching him play that he lacks the talent to be a good OLB and will never justify wasting a 1st round pick on him, rushing to the podium with 14 minutes left on the clock to draft a player that was falling out of the 1st round in a pass rush crazy league, he fell for a reason, he sucked. But then again Tomlin was thrilled by his poor combine and pre draft workout as it scared off other teams, my god that is the most idiotic thinking imagineable but not uncommon for the mediocre Tomlin.


That was hardly the case for years on this site. Saying this was the case was called using a Strawman argument. Where did I say Javis was good? I said he needs to stay healthy and produce for us this year. I just disputed what happened on that play he was hurt on.

For the record I was huge on Jamie Collins but I don't draft.
 
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Nobody denies that there is more competition for 3-4 OLB types. Yes, you have to draft them higher than in previous years. Remind me what rounds Jarvis and Worilds were drafted. And let's not forget Tomlin drafted Timmons to play OLB.

The problem is that they have been wrong on players. Wrong on high picks. Wrong on late picks. Tomlin has drafted 8 players for the front 7 in the first 2 rounds.

What's the excuse for so many bust DBs?
 
He has never run a 4.64 40, he ran a 4,90. He is weak, on his last "sack" that forced a fumble he was thrown like a rag doll into the QB, he is what he is a slow, small weak player with a huge medical issue despite your lack of understanding. A football factory, USC, saw fit to dismiss him from playing due to the condition and all it takes is one hit to end his career, see Michael Irvin,same condition. It doesn't t take 5 years to see Jones is a bust, just watch tape and when he is engaged by a LT the play os over, he has no moves, power or quickness to negate the tackle and instead plays patty cake as the tackle walks him 10 yards past the pocket.

Again, the original poster said the number of teams playing a 3-4 has made it harder to find players, I agree, but it does not explain drafting an inferior athlete in the 1st when better and more athletic players were available later, see Jamie Collins for example. I hated the pick because his college tape showed a hustling player that made plays through scheme and being moved around to take on RBs or TEs in pass rush situations and his complete inability to beat even college tackles for sacks, this does not translate in the NFL and I and all the naysayers on the pick have been right. Doesn't make me happy that he is a bust, it has set the Steelers back as a result but drafting badly has been the Tombert norm. By the way, I get tired of all the talk that Jarvis is young and hasn't had time. He was 24 when drafted and played the exact same position in the SEC so spare me the huge learning curve, he could not even do the basics, get pressure or set the edge. He played a ton as a rookie and showed he has no burst or ability to rush the passer. Even raw rookies in the pas=t have instantly demonstrated pass rush ability in far fewer opportunities. We are stuck with a bad player and he will again be trotted out there to justify his number 1 selection,m whoopee.

Well now that I've seen your first sentence, I know EXACTLY who you REALLY are. We've had this discussion before. I'm not getting into it with you AGAIN and showing you how wrong you are. So continue your trip down denial and have a lovely day.
 
Nobody denies that there is more competition for 3-4 OLB types. Yes, you have to draft them higher than in previous years. Remind me what rounds Jarvis and Worilds were drafted. And let's not forget Tomlin drafted Timmons to play OLB.

The problem is that they have been wrong on players. Wrong on high picks. Wrong on late picks. Tomlin has drafted 8 players for the front 7 in the first 2 rounds.

What's the excuse for so many bust DBs?

Exactly. They need to be drafted higher. But the problem with the Steelers is they have changed the type of players they are looking for. They are not trying to find Joey Porter types. They are looking for smaller, faster players. So they aren't competing for typical 3-4 OLBs like they did a few years ago. They had Jones ranked as one of their top 6 players. So who exactly is stealing all these great 3-4 LBs that the Steelers want? Who did the Steelers want that they couldn't draft at OLB?
 
What evidence do you guys have that the Steelers are looking for smaller linebackers? Besides Shawn Spence who are these small guys you guys are referring too. Woodley and Worilds were both big guys. Woodley was a beast and Worlids was a servicable guy stuck behind some good players most of his career. got his chance and did ok.. Was inconsistent but now we might know why. Vince Williams is a big linebacker. Timmons is just as big a ILB we have had. except Kirkland who was freak of nature. Not getting into the Timmons inside/outside debate. He starts and has been pretty damn good. Shazier is not a little guy. I will say they maybe trying to get faster but isn't that a result of the game today more passing and less running?.

As far Jarvis are we really getting on him for his first year. Porter didnt play. Gildon didnt play. Woodley didnt play. Harrison wanted to quit cause he couldnt get the playbook.We throw Jarvis in there and he looks lost. Surprise!!! No. Second year looks a little better and gets injured. I've already said he needs to stay healthy and perform in a big way this year. so I'm not in no way pimping him. He has to improve. We need him to step up. But I haven't seen enough to say he is a bust or a player.

I started this thread because for years people have said exactly what Cowher said in the article and told it was bullshit. Case in point some of these pass rushers going in the first round this year would not have been top ten picks or first round picks 10 to 15 years ago. That' was the point. Even with apparently more opportunities there was some misses in those days too.
 
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What evidence do you guys have that the Steelers are looking for smaller linebackers? Besides Shawn Spence who are these small guys you guys are referring too. Woodley and Worilds were both big guys. Woodley was a beast and Worlids was a servicable guy stuck behind some good players most of his career. got his chance and did ok.. Was inconsistent but now we might know why. Vince Williams is a big linebacker. Timmons is just as big a ILB we have had. except Kirkland who was freak of nature. Not getting into the Timmons inside/outside debate. He starts and has been pretty damn good. Shazier is not a little guy. I will say they maybe trying to get faster but isn't that a result of the game today more passing and less running?.

As far Jarvis are we really getting on him for his first year. Porter didnt play. Gildon didnt play. Woodley didnt play. Harrison wanted to quit cause he couldnt get the playbook.We throw Jarvis in there and he looks lost. Surprise!!! No. Second year looks a little better and gets injured. I've already said he needs to stay healthy and perform in a big way this year. so I'm not in no way pimping him. He has to improve. We need him to step up. But I haven't seen enough to say he is a bust or a player.

I started this thread because for years people have said exactly what Cowher said in the article and told it was bullshit. Case in point some of these pass rushers going in the first round this year would not have been top ten picks or first round picks 10 to 15 years ago. That' was the point. Even with apparently more opportunities there was some misses in those days too.


I don't know where these people are that deny that you must draft OLB higher than in years past. WHat i do see is people saying that the fact you must draft them a few rounds higher than years past is no excuse for missing on them. If anything, it should increase the success rate because you should be more sure in your evaluation.

Porter didn't play as a rookie because he was a conversion project and there was an entrenched started ahead of him Jarvis played 3-4 OLB in college and was handed the starting job and didn't do jack ****.

Porter also managed 2 sacks his rookie year despite ZERO starts. He was good enough to demand playing time and he made plays. Porter also had a forced fumble and 2 fumble recoveries as a rookie.

Gildon also had 2 sacks as a rookie. Woodley had 4 sacks as a rookie.

Jarvis started 8 games as a rookie and had 1 sack.
 
You want to say JJ sucks and doesn't matter in reference to this article, you're being myopic in your position. We may have missed with JJ, but it doesn't change the fact that the pool for 3-4 OLBs is a lot smaller when 15 teams are fishing for them as opposed to 2.

With Butler's influence being the final say for defenders now that DL is gone, it will be interesting to see what our LB coach actually wants for OLBs now that he's in a position of clout. This will be an interesting draft in more ways than one this year!
 
You want to say JJ sucks and doesn't matter in reference to this article, you're being myopic in your position. We may have missed with JJ, but it doesn't change the fact that the pool for 3-4 OLBs is a lot smaller when 15 teams are fishing for them as opposed to 2.

With Butler's influence being the final say for defenders now that DL is gone, it will be interesting to see what our LB coach actually wants for OLBs now that he's in a position of clout. This will be an interesting draft in more ways than one this year!

I do not believe any assistants have the final say. As near as I can tell the Rooneys will have the final say and if they choose not to intervene it will be between Colbert and Tomlin and likely some combination of the two. The upper hand is likely worked out way before the draft and is unlikely to show up unless something they are completely unprepared for happens.
 
Not trying to stir the pot but why would you want to end the debate on a topic on the message board? Is that not the purpose of the board?

Andrewjosh that makes you sound like one of those global warming nuts that keep saying the debate is over when it never happened, ( not saying you are ) by the way wasn't the world supposed to have ended already?
 
Not trying to stir the pot but why would you want to end the debate on a topic on the message board? Is that not the purpose of the board?

Andrewjosh that makes you sound like one of those global warming nuts that keep saying the debate is over when it never happened, ( not saying you are ) by the way wasn't the world supposed to have ended already?

Maybe because some of these "discussions" get brought up every year, and the same points from the same people get brought up. It gets old, we need new interesting discussions, not rehashed horeshit left over from the last beating.
 
Maybe because some of these "discussions" get brought up every year, and the same points from the same people get brought up. It gets old, we need new interesting discussions, not rehashed horeshit left over from the last beating.


^^^ you know that's right...
 
What evidence do you guys have that the Steelers are looking for smaller linebackers? Besides Shawn Spence who are these small guys you guys are referring too. Woodley and Worilds were both big guys. Woodley was a beast and Worlids was a servicable guy stuck behind some good players most of his career. got his chance and did ok.. Was inconsistent but now we might know why. Vince Williams is a big linebacker. Timmons is just as big a ILB we have had. except Kirkland who was freak of nature. Not getting into the Timmons inside/outside debate. He starts and has been pretty damn good. Shazier is not a little guy. I will say they maybe trying to get faster but isn't that a result of the game today more passing and less running?

Shazier was 237 Lbs. at the combine. He is small by Lb standards. Spence is small. Jones is small. V. Williams was 233 Lbs when he came out. Zumwalt is 235 Lbs. Gibson was 240 Lbs. Sylvester was 230 Lbs. Humpal was 244 but he was 6'3 and thin as a rail. Bruce Davis was 250 LBs but he was rail thin as well. Hell Moats is only 245 Lbs. Right now their biggest starting LB is Timmons and he plays inside. When he was drafted he only weighed 235 LBs.

How many more LBs do you need to see that they started drafting more smaller speed guys? They haven't drafted a big Lb since Woodley. He was 270 Lbs. They haven't come close to drafting any LBer near that size since.
 
How many college guys are coming out who are huge guys. Its a trickle down effect. As more teams play the spread offense in college the smaller the LBs are getting. Same as the NFL more teams are looking for Faster guys to cover the pass . We are talking about 10 pounds in most cases by the way.
 
Where are the threads where this great debate is happening? Post some links and I will merge them.
 
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No one is name calling or being an *** just discussing. If we now want to act like this wasn't a debate on this board that's cool too close the thread. I only started the thread because it was a direct Quote from Cowher
 
Where are the threads where this great debate is happening? Post some links and I will merge them.

the debate is old and on-going. Surely you've paid attention over the past few years. if not, then Bleeder's correct.
 
No one is name calling or being an *** just discussing. If we now want to act like this wasn't a debate on this board that's cool too close the thread. I only started the thread because it was a direct Quote from Cowher

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so now people is discussing if there was a previous discussion? Discuss..
 
This has what to do with taking Landry Jones in the 4th, or Dri Archer in the 3rd? So it's harder to find 3-4 OLB's, wouldn't it also be harder to find WR's since the league is wide open air it out now? we seem to find WR's ok, like someone else said quit drafting LB's that don't fit this system, if you want Tampa 2 guys then switch to a Tampa 2.
 
How many college guys are coming out who are huge guys. Its a trickle down effect. As more teams play the spread offense in college the smaller the LBs are getting. Same as the NFL more teams are looking for Faster guys to cover the pass . We are talking about 10 pounds in most cases by the way.

That's an entirely different discussion. Remember they were drafting college DE to convert them. They can still do that. There are tons of them every year. The problem is that their talent evaluation for the type of player than want isn't very good. Jones was so high on their list that they had him in the top 6 of their draft board. It's the process that is broken.
 
You mean like Mike Vrabel?

Not sure what Vrabel has to do with anything... but I guess you are trying to dredge up the old "Cowher missed on a LB as well" diatribe. I guess you have to get your shot in?
 
Wasn't Worlids and Woodley college DEs
 
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